"What's The Matter With Kids These Days!" A Review of "Killing Cool" by Kurt Keefner

[Peter]

Andrew invited me to ask questions that are not loaded with misconceptions so I will.

What is goth culture about?

Why do you like the goth style?

Why is the depiction of goth culture in the movies, or in news stories inaccurate? (Edward Scissorshand, and those ghoulish animated features for example?)

Even if you don’t look warmed over (according to an eye witness account) why is it the few goths I have seen DID look like Marylyn Manson (except for a few mohawks or other different hairstyles?)

[dldelancey]

According to Peter, Andrew looks like a zombie and I'm photoshopped. Actually, I think I'll take mine as a compliment. Thanks, Peter!

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

Deanna,

That's OK.

Peter looks like a cat.

Wait... I think that is a cat...

Michael

[Peter]

Michael. I am disappointed. You dont call that magnificent beast a cat. Sparks is not JUST a cat. That is a Chesapeake Panther, ruler of the seven acres, except for Gladiator a big Tom who is considered the sheriff in my wild animal sanctuary. To him, she is his tolerated companion, unless he is eating.

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

Peter,

Please convey my deepest apologies to the master.

Michael

[Selene]

Michael. I am disappointed. You dont call that magnificent beast a cat. Sparks is not JUST a cat. That is a Chesapeake Panther, ruler of the seven acres, except for Gladiator a big Tom who is considered the sheriff in my wild animal sanctuary. To him, she is his tolerated companion, unless he is eating.

This is how Peter's cat [oh I so wanted to alliterate there] thinks it looks like...

[studiodekadent]

Andrew invited me to ask questions that are not loaded with misconceptions so I will.

What is goth culture about?

As I said in my essay, it basically is composed of two things:

1. A sense of proud alienation from "conventional" society, and a high respect for individuality and thinking independently.

2. An appreciation for a set of historically and stylistically interrelated music genres, as well as the visual appearances associated with those genres. The music genres in question are Goth Rock/Post Punk, Industrial-Electronic, Synth Pop/Darkwave, and also (to some degree) Industrial Rock and certain kinds of Metal (but generally NOT Black Metal/Death Metal).

Why do you like the goth style?

First, there are multiple different goth styles (and in actual fact, they usually do not look like zombies or corpses). There's the "romantic" style (Victorian-esque formal clothing and the like), there's the futuristic/cyberpunk style (typically associated with the Industrial/Electro part of Goth), there's the more punk-rock-inspired look, but really there's a lot of flexibility. Oh, and the makeup isn't corpse-paint (i.e. white and black facepaint is not associated with the Goth scene, its primarily associated with the Black Metal/Death Metal scene). Typically it doesn't go much further than eyeliner, lipstick/lipgloss and perhaps some foundation to make one's complexion one or two shades fairer.

As to why I like it? I think it can look very good (at least the kind/s of goth style I like... I prefer to avoid the punk look), I enjoy and share the goth scene's attitude about being proudly alienated from the mainstream, and I like the music.

Why is the depiction of goth culture in the movies, or in news stories inaccurate? (Edward Scissorshand, and those ghoulish animated features for example?)

Okay, we need to separate out the different movies and news stories you're talking about. I'll start with the news stories first.

The news in general loves sensationalism and stories about the latest thing "corrupting the youth" - comic books, video games, pen-and-paper RPGs etc all caused moral panics. The moral panic over goth, however, started specifically due (unfortunately) to Marilyn Manson (who's album "Antichrist Superstar" caused its share of outrage). Manson's music isn't goth music but it has some influence from goth, and to some degree it popularized a version of the goth look (typically a more messy, punk-like version) amongst his relatively young fanbase. At this time we had Tipper Gore and the whole moral panic over violent and offensive music going on in congress.

Then Columbine happened and that moral panic absolutely exploded. The shooters, Dylan Klebold and Eric Harris, weren't exactly gothic but they were distantly affiliated with a semi-gothic clique on campus called "the trench-coat mafia" (black trenchcoats are legitimately part of goth fashion), and they were also fans of an Electro-Rock/Industrial-Rock band called KFMDM, who are popular in the goth scene (that said, if you take a listen to KFMDM's music, its actually not particularly dark and they have a surprising amount of rather pleasant and dancey songs). Of course, the press decided to blame Marilyn Manson (although the shooters didn't like his work).

The religious right got involved; they defamed Manson and accused him of murdering puppies on stage and holding Satanic baptisms (Manson sued them for defamation and won the case). They jumped on the gravy train and began hyping up the whole "goths = your child is going to be worshipping satan" panic alongside panics over 'ungodly' music blah blah blah. Some Christian ministries even actively focused on trying to convert goths to Christianity! This filtered down into talk shows like Jenny Jones, where Manson fans and some goths (after Columbine, actual goths tried to distance themselves from Manson rather aggressively, mostly as a defensive tactic) got dragged on stage to be systematically humiliated by the audience and condemned by their parents before being forced to undergo a makeover into a "normal" child. The schools banned gothic attire in the aftermath of Columbine too, claiming it was somehow gang-affiliated.

Now, onto the movies. I presume you're talking about Tim Burton films right? How can you describe them as "ghoulish"? The Nightmare Before Christmas and Corpse Bride are both perfectly family-friendly movies and Corpse Bride in particular is a very sweet love story! Edward Scissorhands is hardly some twisted evil film either... and Edward's costuming is exaggerated owing to the fact that its a movie. The Crow (not a Burton film but still) is a goth classic yet gothic people actually don't wear that kind of facepaint (except perhaps if we're specifically dressing like The Crow on Halloween).

Even if you don’t look warmed over (according to an eye witness account) why is it the few goths I have seen DID look like Marylyn Manson (except for a few mohawks or other different hairstyles?)

First, how did you know they actually were goths? They could've been metalheads or Manson fans or punk rock fans (mohawks, for instance, are pretty common amongst punk rock fans). Second, "looking like Marilyn Manson" doesn't necessarily imply dressing in a filthy, punk-like style; his image during the Mechanical Animals era (his critical and commercial high point) was derived from Bowie-esque glam rock and during the Golden Age of Grotesque era and afterwards there was a lot of dapper formal wear and suits and pinstripes. Third, you openly admit you've only seen a "few" alleged goths so perhaps you should refrain from making judgments without sufficient background knowledge.

But you know what? I'm going to point out something; you seem to think dressing conventionally is a norm which requires no explanation and can be taken for granted, yet dressing unconventionally is a deviation from the norm which requires explanation. I disagree, because dressing conventionally is just as much of a choice as dressing unconventionally. All of these conventions are man-made, not metaphysical, so why do you take the norm for granted rather than ask yourself why these norms exist in the first place and what justifies them? And what, pray tell, justifies rendering moral condemnation upon people simply for having unorthodox aesthetic preferences?

[Selene]

Geez Peter:

You have reams of documents from forums from a decade ago - run a damn search -

http://irisnoir.com/index.php/formal-gothic-c-60?osCsid=3eb4e28c4354cd41999a13cb95907b3a

[Peter]

Don't cry because it's over, smile because it happened. Dr. Seuss

Andrew wrote and I edited his thoughts to more easily respond:

. . . dressing conventionally is just as much of a choice as dressing unconventionally. All of these conventions are man-made . . . . And what, pray tell, justifies rendering moral condemnation upon people simply for having unorthodox aesthetic preferences?

end quote

Thanks to Adam for some pictures of goth fashion. That conservative goth, old fashion clothing is not what I remember seeing in goths in person, on news stories, or in the movies.

Human nature is the same for goths as it is for all other cultures. There are standards, elites, and fringe areas. Dressing goth in a particular FASHION or manner is conformity to a group. The same dynamic apparent in the NORM is at work in goth culture too: and that is conformity. It is just that sub cultures seek delight, status, and exclusivity by declaring that normal people are squares.

Sometimes the mentality of dressing up is enjoyable as in Halloween costumes or in wearing a StarTrek uniform to a convention. But to me goth AS A WAY OF LIFE is a high school, clique mentality, and not conducive to survival.

Western civilization tolerates cultural deviations better than oriental cultures like the Japanese or despotic cultures as in Nazi Germany or Putins New Soviet Union. Being goth does not *normally* violate human rights, as Andrew has mentioned, but the crimes committed by a goth minority does make into the news more often than peaceful behavior. So the norm in a microcosm, even if it is goth or in the larger culture, is not necessarily THE GOOD. So what is the GOOD?

Brant Gaede wrote back in 2001 on Atlantis:

I don't think man is the rational animal. I think man is the would be, could be, should be rational animal and that . . . rationality exists along a continuum of less to more rational. And thinking rationally is only one step. He (she, pardon me) then must act rationally (morally) to actually be rational.

end quote

Roger Bissell responded:

Brant, this is not what Aristotle and Rand meant by "the rational animal." Rand clearly explained this in her writings, particularly in her chapter on definitions in "Introduction to Objectivist Epistemology." She meant ~not~ that humans differ from animals by invariably ~using~ reason, but by having the ~capacity~ (which animals do not have) to use reason.

As an aside: I have noticed a tendency in stating definitions to stray from the Aristotelian-Randian formula of genus-and-differentia. The order is quite important, and not at all a formalistic irrelevance. If you say man is "the rational animal" -- which is differentia first, then genus -- it is all to easy to draw the false implication that active use of reason is an invariable trait of humans. At least, that is what I see, time and time again, in discussion of Rand's / Aristotle's definition of man. Instead, do the extra mental step and put the definition in "standard" (genus-then-differentia) form, and you'll see the meaning with greater clarity. Man is the animal (genus) with rationality (the capacity to engage in reason) -- not man is the animal (genus) with invariably rational behavior. (Another aside: this approach can be used with benefit on ~other~ definitions, too -- e.g., government.)

I am not trying to pick on Brant here. It's just that, like others, he interprets "rational" and "rationality" in the sense of ~actual~ behavior, rather than the ~potential~, the ~capacity~, which is the fundamental attribute from which rational actions can (but do not always) flow.

end quote

Ghs wrote in the same thread:

Rand emphatically does *not* say that both rationality and animality are defining characteristics. On the contrary, she repeatedly states that "man's rational faculty is his *essential* distinguishing and DEFINING characteristic (ITOE, 46)." The differentia is the "defining" characteristic, because it is the differentia that distinguishes the definiendum from the broader class of existents specified in the genus ("animal," in the case of man).

end quote

My inclusion of these thoughts is not to morally condemn goth culture but to say that IT DOES NOT demonstrate a capacity for rational thought. To the contrary, goth is a befuddled, juvenile, desire to be part of a DIFFERENT norm; to be part of an exclusive and not *square clique.* Sex, drugs, and rock and roll is not rational behavior. Joining a criminal enterprise or sub group like outlaw bikers is not rational behavior. Self harm and taking risks, no matter in what sub culture it is done in, is not exhibiting the rational thought needed for long term survival.

This needs editing but in stead I am heading for the great outdoors to jog, then cut grass since it is sunny and 83. I will wear my uniform of sweat wicking shorts, and short sleeve shirt, and running shoes. I don't own a StarTrek shirt or I might be wearing that.

Peter

[Peter]

Adam wrote:

You have reams of documents from forums from a decade ago - run a damn search -

end quote

OK I typed in goth and got a website called, what else, GOTH. Some of the following seems pierced tongue in blackened cheek. But ghouly, Barney Fife, said Gomer, they got only a 60 year life expectancy? Hairy bodies like the wolf man (hypertrichosis?)

And quote: The most militant goths go out of their way to emphasize their heritage, wearing wild clothes, dying and shaving their hair in wild patterns, and otherwise drawing attention to themselves. They turn against everything that society stands for, rewriting history to suit themselves, digging out old customs and musical styles (most notably, late 20th Century heavy metal music) and generally being anarchists. end quote

That aint right, Sheriff Taylor. Not here in Mayberry and not in a disco club blasting Black Sabbath. I clipped and snipped the following from the website GOTH:

(Homo sapiens potens) Mutants able to physically enhance their bodies.

Avg. Height: M - 6'2" F - 5'8" Avg. Weight: M - 190# F - 160# Hair Color: Black, gray, white Eye Color: Reddish, black, gray Blood Pressure: 100/70 Life Expectancy: 60 years Dist. Marks: Large build, black skin, fangs, claws, hypertrichosis.

Goths are genetically-modified beings with powerful mutative abilities. Their black skin and bad reputation only add to their mystique. There are at least seven distinct genotypes which share some degree of genetic ancestry with the original Alpha GOTHEs. On one end of the spectrum are those that share primarily mental mutations, such as daemons, savants and psychos, while on the other end are those who share more physical mutations, including morphs, shifters, vampires and "true" goths. Though all seven of these genotypes are medically referred to as "goths," in popular culture only "true" goths maintain this nickname. Untouched by the taint of human blood, these "true" goths are the offspring of two Beta GOTHS, and possess biological structures that are almost exact mirrors of those the Alphas boasted, with a degree of specific control unmatched by any other genotype. The exact limit of their capabilities is unknown, but their ability to increase their strength and stamina, and to rapidly regenerate damage, is well documented.

Because of this, goths tend to avoid sunlight at all costs, and this and the fact that their skin tends towards dark gray or black has earned them a reputation as "children of the night." This reclusive nature has led many of the 25 to 27,000 purestrain goths alive today to devote themselves to hours of study, attempting to expand their minds. It is because of this devotion to learning that the stereotype of the big, stupid, hulking goth monster is incorrect in most cases. Goths are at least as smart as humans, and their attention to study places them amongst the upper ranks of whatever field of study they choose to pursue... if they choose to do so, of course.

Most of these symptoms occur after puberty, with the onset of some symptoms delayed until adulthood, but the situation is often exacerbated by the intake of excessive amounts of alcohol, which can cause iron to build up in the liver, leading to fibrosis or liver damage. Regardless of alcohol intake, however, all goths eventually suffer from this condition; the older goths get, and the more they use their abilities, the more their system mutates and is unable to repair itself, and the more the Porphyria kicks in. Without treatment, they will, quite literally, kill themselves. Treatment slows the progress, but the form of PCT that goths have is incurable. Some 20 percent of goths eventually die from liver failure due to this condition.

. . . . Rejected by society, many goths choose to lash out at it, refusing to join what they see as a racist, biased system. Many join gangs, roaming the city streets and vandalizing property as they prey on those who are trying to "keep them down". The most militant goths go out of their way to emphasize their heritage, wearing wild clothes, dying and shaving their hair in wild patterns, and otherwise drawing attention to themselves. They turn against everything that society stands for, rewriting history to suit themselves, digging out old customs and musical styles (most notably, late 20th Century heavy metal music) and generally being anarchists. Others sink into bouts of depression, turning to drugs and alcohol as a solution to their problems; goths possess one of the highest rates of suicide amongst all genotypes, second only to psychos.

. . . . Some dress in styles from earlier eras (the Victorian, 1970s Punk and 1950s "Rock Opera" looks are quite popular), while others resurrect old slang, all in an attempt to claim a piece of the past for themselves and their kind. Those who turn to the "wild side" might even go out of their way to reinforce the monster stereotype that has led to their treatment as second-class beings.

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

You guys are spoiling my inner visions of Clockwork Orange.

Michael

[william.scherk]

OK I typed in goth and got a website called, what else, GOTH. Some of the following seems pierced tongue in blackened cheek

[...]

(Homo sapiens potens) Mutants able to physically enhance their bodies.

Avg. Height: M - 6'2" F - 5'8" Avg. Weight: M - 190# F - 160# Hair Color: Black, gray, white Eye Color: Reddish, black, gray Blood Pressure: 100/70 Life Expectancy: 60 years Dist. Marks: Large build, black skin, fangs, claws, hypertrichosis.

The site you discovered is an exploration/background of an online multiplayer real-time virtual world/role-playing game. "Iconoclast is a Gothic/Cyberpunk 22nd Century setting. It is primarily experienced as a MUD, online since 1996, but also as an RPG (in progress) and various websites. "

Western civilization tolerates cultural deviations better than oriental cultures like the Japanese

Gee, I wonder if Japanese young people dress up in Peter-Taylor-befuddling costumes and have weird subcultures ...

Maybe. From a brief article at Cracked.com: "6 Japanese Subcultures That Are Insane (Even for Japan)":

Named for the English word "gal," gyaru are young girls who dye their hair sickly shades of silver and blonde, get fakey tans and slather the makeup on thicker than Bugs Bunny in drag. They can be found hanging out on street corners in almost every major city, but the movement was born (like almost every freaky Japanese style) in the ultra-hip Harajuku neighborhood of Tokyo.

There are all sorts of subgroups of gyaru, and each successive generation gets weirder than the last.

First came the kogyaru, high school girls who wore sexualized versions of their school uniforms (supershort skirts and incredibly saggy socks) and dyed their hair blond. Once that style peaked, some girls started to go off the rails. Known as ganguro, they slathered dark makeup on their faces, painted their lips white and attached shiny stickers to their faces.

And a picture:

-- that's just one subtype of the gyaru, and gyaru only represent the female. I can imagine Peter having a series of strokes if he saw the full extent of weird Japanese dress-up cults. If he did, though, he would probably get off Andrew's back ...

Oh, and another weird Japanese 'conforrmity'? DEKOTORA!! Yes, this is a decorated truck.

Whew!

And, to cleanse the palate, a story from the Daily Mail, 2013: "Police to classify attacks on goths and punks as hate crimes in a bid to recognise 'alternative subcultures' after killing of girl with 20 piercings in her face"

Final picture, a look that Peter can accept: these two fun kids are wearing the clothes of the 'Aristocrat' sub-sub-culture ...

For those who accept wholeheartedly the bigoted generalization that "Western civilization tolerates cultural deviations better than oriental cultures like the Japanese," do not, do not click this link: TV Tropes: Subcultures in Japan.

And don't read this excerpt!

Modern Japan is a fast-moving, highly volatile environment, with a strong sense of neophilia amongst the Japanese people. Combine that with the easy adaptability of the youth, and you get a veritable breeding ground for new and altered subcultures based on behaviours, clothes, music, whatever.

Oh, hell, why not explode Peter's numpty notion of 'Oriental culture'? Here is a picture of China's "Shamate" subculture and a coda. From Buzzfeed's tart "Meet Shamate, China’s Most Hated Subculture." The government has 'taken measures' to stamp it out. More power to them, huh?

Chinese and English media profiles paint them mostly as dropouts from schools in the countryside, moving away from their families to work low-skill jobs at big city factories, street-side vendors and hair salons. They take elaborate selfies of their vampire makeups, live in cramped basements, speak in farmland accents, and listen to bad dance music. Like Juggalos, they meet their ‘family’ online. Like Juggalos, everyone else is simultaneously fascinated and repulsed by them.

Oh noes. Juggalos!

Edited June 10, 2015 by william.scherk

[studiodekadent]

Peter,

Given your reply, frankly I don't think its worth continuing this discussion. Being goth in and of itself violates no one's rights. One does not need to commit force, fraud or coercion in order be be a goth. You talk about crimes committed by a goth minority but I see absolutely no evidence of this; in my experience goths are generally very nonviolent people.

I have better things to do with my time than try and educate the closed-minded.

William,

Thank you for your post, but I doubt it would convince Peter of anything. He seems to have already made his mind up and swallowed a more-than-decade-old moral-panic narrative manufactured by the politicians, press and "parent's groups."

[Brant Gaede]

I'm a true goth myself. No one else is like me.

--Brant

I'm weird but usually* look "normal," which is really, really weird

*during the day, outside

[Brant Gaede]

Thanks, Peter, it's remarkable I remember writing that back in 2001. Back then I was only home every couple of weeks, which is when I'd get caught up on old Atlantis. It was about then that that Russian submarine went down and I wrote a post entitled "Down with the Kursk," which upset some innocent and naive guy no end. Basically I said I was glad the sub was sunk and sorry the crew died. Why? Its job was to blow up American aircraft carriers.

--Brant

[Peter]

I typed in Kursk and other terms seeking a match but I did not find your post Brant.

[Peter]

Andrew wrote:

Given your reply, frankly I don't think its worth continuing this discussion.

end quote

Fine, Andrew. I just have a few more ideas that you may read but not respond to. As you get older, and perhaps have children of your own, you may and probably will become less conformist (yeah, you are a blatant conformist and TIED emotionally and physically to a group mentality). You will not think so highly of a culture that is not rational or productive but is instead self delusional, self destructive, and extremely, extremely worried about their image.

Yet from your posts I detect a moral, intelligent, and readable poster.

[Peter]

Thanks to Adam and William for their great posts, full of information. But you cannot google indiscriminately and expect anything like scientific proof. You will get hits on what you typed in.

Go to a sociologic site that explains a societies mores. A&W, I knew Japan had subcultures but I lived there for nine months and I can tell you that though they DO tolerate their eccentrics, still 99.9 percent of the population will not marry them or associate with them. Japanese, Chinese and other oriental peoples are extremely racist and conformist. The biggest dread in their lives is not dying in an accident or from a disease, it is that they will lose face or bring scandals to their families. They care about their reputation more than any American or Canadian can imagine. Thou shalt not lose face.