Muslims Who Stand Up To Islamists -- Karima Bennoune


Michael Stuart Kelly

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Muslims Who Stand Up To Islamists -- Karima Bennoune

I have some comments about this TED Talk, but I am also interested in what people around here think.

Bennoune talks with too thick a progressive accent for my taste and she highlights Muslims who stand up to Islamic fundamentalists in order to save their religion from the bad guys.

This is not an approach that resonates here in the USA. People here want to condemn Islamists in the name of the values and stories here, whether left, right or libertarian. And they want moderate Muslims to do likewise. However, Muslims in Muslim communities do things according to the culture they live, not the one we live.

Bennoune gives human faces to these brave unknown people in a book she wrote: Your Fatwa Does Not Apply Here: Untold Stories from the Fight Against Muslim Fundamentalism.

It is full of stories we never hear.

Karima Bennoune: The side of terrorism that doesn't make headlines

Bennoune is perplexed about why these stories don't spread. I almost feel sorry for her because she is telling the wrong story, or more precisely, she is telling the right story within the wrong frame. American don't want to save Islam from Islamic fundamentalists. They want Islamists to stop being a threat to America. Ditto for other non-Islamic countries.

If she told her stories from that perspective, she could even include saving Islam as a secondary theme and I believe her influence would go much, much further. The way she did it, her audience is going to be predominantly Muslim, not the mainstream in the West.

And as a further quibble, her progressive subtext (her secondary theme) turned me off. I'm a freedom guy and I would resonate far more with her if her subtext reflected it. But I'm not mainstream and I always try to use the thinking process of identify correctly, then judge. So I hear her.

It's a shame she has such an uphill battle to get the existence of these Muslims who make a stand against Islamic fundamentalists into the mainstream, but this is one good example of how core stories control the culture.

Michael

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Muslims Who Stand Up To Islamists -- Karima Bennoune

I have some comments about this TED Talk, but I am also interested in what people around here think.

Bennoune talks with too thick a progressive accent for my taste and she highlights Muslims who stand up to Islamic fundamentalists in order to save their religion from the bad guys.

This is not an approach that resonates here in the USA. People here want to condemn Islamists in the name of the values and stories here, whether left, right or libertarian. And they want moderate Muslims to do likewise. However, Muslims in Muslim communities do things according to the culture they live, not the one we live.

Bennoune gives human faces to these brave unknown people in a book she wrote: Your Fatwa Does Not Apply Here: Untold Stories from the Fight Against Muslim Fundamentalism.

It is full of stories we never hear.

Karima Bennoune: The side of terrorism that doesn't make headlines

Bennoune is perplexed about why these stories don't spread. I almost feel sorry for her because she is telling the wrong story, or more precisely, she is telling the right story within the wrong frame. American don't want to save Islam from Islamic fundamentalists. They want Islamists to stop being a threat to America. Ditto for other non-Islamic countries.

If she told her stories from that perspective, she could even include saving Islam as a secondary theme and I believe her influence would go much, much further. The way she did it, her audience is going to be predominantly Muslim, not the mainstream in the West.

And as a further quibble, her progressive subtext (her secondary theme) turned me off. I'm a freedom guy and I would resonate far more with her if her subtext reflected it. But I'm not mainstream and I always try to use the thinking process of identify correctly, then judge. So I hear her.

It's a shame she has such an uphill battle to get the existence of these Muslims who make a stand against Islamic fundamentalists into the mainstream, but this is one good example of how core stories control the culture.

Michael

They're impotent, Michael. Like spitting into the ocean. When there are billions of *decent moderate Muslims" who just go along to get along with the fascists.

The complicity is positively breathtaking.

We are witnessing the rise of the "Fourth Reich".

Greg

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Greg,

Have you been to a Muslim country?

Do you participate in Muslim communities?

I have lived among them.

What they say among themselves and what they say to the mainstream is different.

I agree the 4th Reich is starting, but look deeper into the roots. Here's a site that might help you understand a bit more than the "Islam is evil" agenda: Tell the Children the Truth. This is sponsored by Sheikh Abdul Hadi Palazzi.

The short version is this. There was a HUGE following of Nazis among Arabs during WWII. (Hell, Iran means Ayran. Before Nazis, it was called Persia. Helloooo...) When the war ended, lots of Nazis immigrated to Middle East. But the German Nazis were not the problem. The real problem was the Arabian Nazis.

But rather than go after them and bring them down, here in the USA and in England, we had a bigger issue to fight: Soviet Union. Well... Nazis hate Communists, so what did we do?

We hired the Arabian Nazis to fight the Communists in the cold war!

Duh.

What did we expect? We funded and trained their spy networks and God knows what else. This was the direct lineage of the Ba'ath party of Saddam Hussein and a good hunk of the Muslim Brotherhood. Start digging and you will see for yourself. Scratch an Islamist fundamentalist and you will find a Nazi in the mix, when not directly in his family. A literal Nazi, not a hyperbolic one.

Oh... I forgot.

We also set Saudi Arabia up with boocoo oil money knowing full well they were spending it on Wahhabi schools all over the world. Scratch them and you find Nazis, too.

Don't take my word for it.

Research it and read. It's quite an eye-opener.

I swear, our fearless leaders here in the West are dumbasses when it comes to dealing with evil of this nature.

Michael

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A good review of Karima Bennoune's book,"You Fatwa Doesn't Apply Here".

Reviewed by Danusha Goska.

http://www.jihadwatch.org/2014/01/your-fatwa-does-not-apply-here-not-what-it-appears-to-be

There's a problem with this kind of review.

The book was written to give faces to the Muslims who are standing up against Islamists. And it does. Goska even admits that in a couple of offhand moments. That won't stop the same reviewer tomorrow from saying bazillions of Muslims tacitly accept the Islamists, but that is another issue.

The problem comes from trying to discredit the book because Bennoune doesn't use the word terrorist, but instead fundamentalist. And she doesn't cite verses from the Qur'an. And what else? Oh... she says Christian fundamentalists are equal to Islamic fundamentalists because she doesn't like fundamentalism, and she says the USA is bad a lot.

But none of that was what she set out to do.

She set out to show that there are Muslims standing up to Islamists.

So agree or disagree with her opinions, she did a great journalistic job of showing acceptance of Islamists among Muslims is an oversimplified myth.

Like I said earlier, I don't like Bennoune's progressive party-line tone, which, from what I saw, was not identified as progressive by the reviewer. (That's where the blame USA thing comes from. The way she talked on the video, that, and some other things she said were almost word-perfect progressive talking points. Odd that Goska didn't pick up on that from the book...)

Here's the kind of contradiction this review presents. Late in the review, Goska says:

Bennoune works hard to wish into being an Islam that is tolerant, diverse, respectful, and good for women.

You can almost hear him tut-tut-tutting. And he goes on to bash Islam. Yet earlier in the review, he says this:

The reader witnesses, in Bennoune’s pages, the same vile process described in “I Am Malala.” People are living more or less peacefully. Muslim terrorists move in. In Islam’s name, they begin to terrorize the population.

Notice that "people" are living in peace and Muslims attack them in Islam's name. (Muslim terrorists to be exact, but I am highlighting the strategic omission, the spin.)

But wait a minute. Weren't those "people" Muslims, too? Goll darn it, I think they were. And they were living in peace. How can that be? Oops, that doesn't fit the agenda, so let's spin it a bit.

So round and round and round she goes...

I bet you will find an awful lot of women among those peaceful Muslims who think like Bennoune. These women don't wish the kind of Islam they like into being. They lived it all their lives.

That is a perspective Goska doesn't even know exists. Once again, I don't care for Islam, but--I suspect--to most Muslims, it's the only culture they have known. Somehow they made it work and still lived in peace. That peace is something Goska would prefer not to call Islam. Yet it is to those who live it.

I don't blame Goska for being peeved Bennoune didn't cite scripture. He lost his chance to play gotcha. But I doubt he could ever understand the mentality of that culture. Citing scripture to prove Islam is not part of that mentality. When they cite scripture, it is for things like being good, don't lie or steal, things like that.

To me, the value of this book is not in trying to prove or disprove Robert Spencer's particular brand of bigotry (he's Goska's boss). It is to give faces to Muslims who resist Islamists. And it does that brilliantly.

To Goska's credit, he says, "Her book is valuable and should be read, but read thoughtfully." But man, does he say a crapload about how she is a disgusting person, whining and blind and cowardly and God knows what else. In fact, to my ear, that part doesn't sound thoughtful at all.

Michael

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I spent three months in Libya when Qaddafi was in power, and four months in Indonesia during the Soeharto era. That doesn't make me an expert, but I formed an opinion of Islamic culture. All of the people I encountered were timid, fearful of doing or saying anything without permission, especially the minority Chinese in Indonesia and minority Kurds in Libya. Graft was endemic in both countries, medical care and telephones scarce, and rules of the road meaningless. Everyone drove recklessly and used both sides of the street, horns blaring constantly. They put great store in rubber stamps and official-looking papers, easily forged. Almost all transactions were in cash, even big purchases like homes and cars. Tap water was unsafe to drink. Everyone I encountered was polite and friendly, including government officials, but incapable of keeping an appointment. Crumbling relics of the past had more significance than the present or future.

They are "developing countries" only because of historical and ongoing involvement of European and American engineers and high-level business, diplomatic, and military deals with the ruling family. Everything flows from family connections. There is no upward mobility.

I felt sorry for them. The poorest were nicest, took great care with their dirt floor huts and simple possessions. No one ever spoke about Islam. I had the impression it was just another inherited relic of the past. Most of them spoke of and prayed for world peace. Boys were somewhat cruel, and girls were frightened, but the adults weren't. They were resigned and quiet and curious about the Western world.

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Wolf,

Now that rings true to what I have observed regarding the Muslims in Brazil, except the technology (living conditions) and upward mobility part. Brazil seems to do this stuff better.

Another point: outright lying is a normal part of the culture, but within limits. So calling someone a liar is not too much of an insult. I presume it is that way where you were because these are the same kind of folks.

Nothing like seeing things with your own eyes...

Michael

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There's a problem with this kind of review.

The book was written to give faces to the Muslims who are standing up against Islamists. And it does.

And the review does not detract from that.

Goska even admits that in a couple of offhand moments. That won't stop the same reviewer tomorrow from saying bazillions of Muslims tacitly accept the Islamists, but that is another issue.

Do you have any instances of Goska saying that all Muslims tacitly support the Jihadists? Is this factual, or is it what you believe he thinks?

The problem comes from trying to discredit the book because Bennoune doesn't use the word terrorist, but instead fundamentalist. And she doesn't cite verses from the Qur'an. And what else? Oh... she says Christian fundamentalists are equal to Islamic fundamentalists because she doesn't like fundamentalism, and she says the USA is bad a lot.

He critiques her ideas in regards to them addressing the root of the problem, as he sees it. His review is not an attempt to discredit a book. It is an examination of the ideas she puts forward to gauge their worth as an antidote to Jihadists.

But none of that was what she set out to do.

She set out to show that there are Muslims standing up to Islamists.

Something that is fairly evident even without her. I do not understand the point though of writing such a book if it is not to be something of an antidote to the Jihadists.

So agree or disagree with her opinions, she did a great journalistic job of showing acceptance of Islamists among Muslims is an oversimplified myth.

But the existence of counter-jihadists among muslims isn't controversial. It is their efficacy in dealing with the threat that is controversial.

Here's the kind of contradiction this review presents. Late in the review, Goska says:

Goska said

Bennoune works hard to wish into being an Islam that is tolerant, diverse, respectful, and good for women.

You can almost hear him tut-tut-tutting. And he goes on to bash Islam. Yet earlier in the review, he says this:

Goska said

The reader witnesses, in Bennoune’s pages, the same vile process described in “I Am Malala.” People are living more or less peacefully. Muslim terrorists move in. In Islam’s name, they begin to terrorize the population.

There is no contradiction. Muslims are living peacefully not because of Islam, but in spite of it. When that peace is broken, with brutality and the tyranny of the devout, it is Islam that those peaceful people are becoming victims of. That's a major point in his review. Is her book in any way an antidote to that problem? It isn't, judging by the review. In fact, it's the opposite, because if Goska is correct in his analysis her book serves to obscure the root of the problem by shifting the blame.

Is Notice that "people" are living in peace and Muslims attack them in Islam's name. (Muslim terrorists to be exact, but I am highlighting the strategic omission, the spin.)
But wait a minute. Weren't those "people" Muslims, too? Goll darn it, I think they were. And they were living in peace. How can that be? Oops, that doesn't fit the agenda, so let's spin it a bit.

They were living in peace because they desired a peaceful life more than they desired to be fully devoted to their religion. When Jihadists move in, it is reference to all the parts of Islam that the more peaceful followers have chosen to ignore. I saw a perfect example of this on Australia's program, Insight, the other night. It was studio audience participation thing. The topic was "Why are Australians going to fight in Iraq and Syria". As you probably know a Muslim from Sydney photographed his 7 year old son holding up someones head with the caption, "That's my boy". Anyway, there were muslims there arguing that IS were not following Islam. The response from IS supporters was that they do not sugar coat their religion. This is the nub. To get them to change their ways they are going to have to be shown that their actions are unIslamic. So-called moderate Muslims, so far, have not been able to do this - hence their impotence.

To me, the value of this book is not in trying to prove or disprove Robert Spencer's particular brand of bigotry (he's Goska's boss). It is to give faces to Muslims who resist Islamists. And it does that brilliantly.

The most important question is, do those Muslims have any potency in combatting the threat. If they have no potency, then what does it matter whether they exist or not, or whether anyone notices them or not? It would merely be an exercise in Kudos for the sake of Kudos.

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It sounds like the Muslim religion makes a de facto prison with most of the inmates too afraid to stand up to the thugs running the place. Or, the shit rises to the top of the human milk. The shittiest shit so far is ISIS. Political regimes can suppress this to various extents, but none of them are democratic. Stupidly, the US has been knocking over or destabilizing several of these. (Libya, Iraq, Afghanistan, Pakistan, Syria.) Tar-Babyism for a foreign policy is simply irrational.

--Brant

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It sounds like the Muslim religion makes a de facto prison with most of the inmates too afraid to stand up to the thugs running the place. Or, the shit rises to the top of the human milk.

Brant,

We could say that about Americans accepting weapons of mass destruction rationale for invading Iraq. Or the government spying on everyone. You know they're still doing it and it will get worse as technology gets better.

Why don't we stand up to the thugs running our own place?

Group control is a lot more complicated than the plug-and-play philosophy approach.

Look at how Egypt handled Morsi and you will see a positive example of how an Islamic culture takes care of the fanatics--even in the face of humongous pressure FROM THE USA to leave the thugs in place. Don't think other Islamic cultures aren't watching that and learning. But we're not there. We're here talking about how to eliminate an entire culture and pretending that's not bigotry.

That culture is in transformation and this does not happen by snapping a finger or imposing democracy on them from outside.

Michael

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Muslims are living peacefully not because of Islam, but in spite of it.

Ah... the circularity of the bigot...

It never fails, Jews, blacks, Indians, Irish, Polacks, gays, women and on and on.

The good ones aren't good because of their character while being themselves. They are good in spite of themselves.

I always did love that argument.

Michael

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Young men wage war, teens and early 20s, whether ISIL or Vietnam or The Sons of Liberty at Bunker Hill.

This army was a dangerous thing, a budding democracy of young men with firearms. Inevitably adding to the surliness of the recruits was the availability of large quantities of rum. Muskets kept going off -- sometimes accidentally, sometimes for the fun of it, injuring and, in at least one instance, killing American soldiers. "Four guns were discharged in camp and endangering men's lives," David Avery recorded in his diary on May 8. "One out of our window, one at the picket guard. Two others hurt. An awful day!" The New Englanders could be raucous, but they also tended to be exceedingly religious, attending prayer on an almost daily basis and listening to one, sometimes two sermons each Sunday. The diary kept by Private Amos Farnsworth is as much a record of his spiritual life as it is an account of his experiences in the provincial army. "I was filled with love to God...," he wrote at one point, "and lifted up my soul to God in ejaculation, prayers, and praise." These men were fighting for liberty, but they also believed that the Lord was, in his own inscrutable way, working through each and every one of them.

http://books.google.com/books?id=m7n_AzUJ51QC&pg=PT129&lpg=PT129&dq=bunker+hill+young+men&source=bl&ots=N_-wHf-7jR&sig=XAJ6C1XG-lS7V6NczJyfPulRNTs&hl=en&sa=X&ei=WdDwU63rMtG2yAS97IGICA&ved=0CBwQ6AEwADgK#v=onepage&q=bunker%20hill%20young%20men&f=false

"Too many young men talking about being ready to die tonight #Ferguson" http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2014-08-17/one-shot-critical-condition-7-arrested-after-protesters-break-ferguson-curfew

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"Thugs running [the American] place."

Michael--the President is an elected king. He's running the place about as far as it's runnable.

--Brant

I'm talking about war (and not just right here in River City)

Let's see: "The Civil War" (Lincoln), The Spanish-American War (McKinley), WWI (Wilson), WWII (Roosevelt), Korea (Truman), Vietnam (Johnson), The Gulf War (Bush), the War on Terror (Bush)--there was no stopping any of these bastards, only cleaning up afterwards

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Greg,

Have you been to a Muslim country?

Do you participate in Muslim communities?

I have lived among them.

I have a couple of friends who are Muslim so I personally know the truth that there are good Muslims. My point is that there are too few of them.

This is similar to the situation that there are too few Americans in America. There is only a small minority in America who live by American values. This explains why the government is so large and corrupt. It does not get that way all by itself. There is always a cause. People create the government in their own image.

For the same reason this explains the rise to dominance of the Islamic fascists. They have been created by the Muslims in their own image...

...because there are too few good Muslims.

Greg

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Why don't we stand up to the thugs running our own place?

...because they were created by the political majority in their own image.

Group control is a lot more complicated than the plug-and-play philosophy approach.

Indeed. It is impossible. But it is also impossible to control a spontaneous self motivated individual. That's why it is important to separate ourselves from the mob so as not to become collateral damage from the consequences they set into motion by their actions... not too dissimilar to how the protagonists in AS did.

When you know the flood is coming... you build an ark.

Greg

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The most important question is, do those Muslims have any potency in combating the threat. If they have no potency, then what does it matter whether they exist or not, or whether anyone notices them or not? It would merely be an exercise in Kudos for the sake of Kudos.

Precisely.

Greg

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The most important question is, do those Muslims have any potency in combating the threat. If they have no potency, then what does it matter whether they exist or not, or whether anyone notices them or not? It would merely be an exercise in Kudos for the sake of Kudos.

Precisely.

Greg

And they have not much more potency in living their own lives. A religion of "submission" is a religion of subjugation, of oneself and others. Praying five times a day pushes "God" in and you out. Progress too. A productive and creative mind needs time to itself--a lot of time.

--Brant

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The most important question is, do those Muslims have any potency in combating the threat. If they have no potency, then what does it matter whether they exist or not, or whether anyone notices them or not? It would merely be an exercise in Kudos for the sake of Kudos.

Precisely.

Greg

And they have not much more potency in living their own lives. A religion of "submission" is a religion of subjugation, of oneself and others. Praying five times a day pushes "God" in and you out. Progress too. A productive and creative mind needs time to itself--a lot of time.

--Brant

...that all depends on the morality of the God you pray to.

From your comments about war you have clearly expressed your subscription to the view of moral equivalency,

Not fighting evil... but fighting is evil.

...so it's perfectly natural that you would regard all gods in exactly the same way.

Greg

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And they have not much more potency in living their own lives. A religion of "submission" is a religion of subjugation, of oneself and others. Praying five times a day pushes "God" in and you out. Progress too. A productive and creative mind needs time to itself--a lot of time.

Brant,

You have hit on what I believe is the core mind-control influence of Islam. Not that garbage of cherry-picking verses as if a verse has puppetmaster-like powers over large groups of people.

The real deal is in the indoctrination. If there is any evil inherent in Islam as a whole, I believe it is the five prayers a day routine in the manner it is performed.

I have studied hypnotism and covert persuasion. The salient part of the prayer in Islam to me is the singing and long trance-inducing emotion-laden praise to Allah at the beginning of each prayer. This long beginning is even at the start of each section of the Qur'an. It makes the critical part of the subject's mind to go to sleep and opens a door into his or her unconscious.

The second part, which to me is the actual behavioral glue that molds Islamic communities, is the fact that the Qur'an is entirely in the present tense. It is the only sacred document of the world's major religions that is in the present tense. From a hypnotic perspective, this is important because hypnotists, and even marketers, have known for decades that the unconscious does not process past and future too well. It treats everything as in the present, so the present tense resonates down at the deepest levels of the mind.

(btw - This is why stories penetrate so well, even when they are written in the past tense. When reading, we "see" them in our mind's eye as being in the present. Also, this applies to the power of fictional movies and TV--it's all perceived as being in the present. Imagine watching the same 15 minute movie five times a day. Pretty soon you would start acting like that movie whether you wanted to or not. )

There is some debate on the theory about how the present tense affects the unconscious, but it is a notion that has been around a long time and there are lots of methods that work that have been developed using it as a premise.

People wonder how a brilliant young medical doctor can become a suicide bomber. That is how. Hearing vile commands in the present tense embedded in a larger message five times a day while in a hypnotic trance.

So here is the point. It doesn't matter what the scripture says. What matters is what the individual being hypnotized receives. If the imam intoning the prayer is a good dude, he will induce peace by focusing on peaceful messages. If he is an evil bastard, he will create suicide bombers.

Think about it. How on earth did The Nation of Islam get caught up in Scientology? I think it is because both are about hypnotic mind control as their means of affecting change in individuals and controlling them. These two cultures know each other well, even if their details vary.

On a much less toxic level, think about all the hypnotic rituals we perform here in America. Starting with "The Star Spangled Banner" opening every sports event. People are excited by the game, so they don't even pay any attention to the light trance the music puts them in as the words speak to their unconscious (with the payload in the present tense) of the flag, the red glare of rockets, freedom and bravery. They even reinforce the power of this by singing it themselves. Over and over and over...

Michael

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The most important question is, do those Muslims have any potency in combating the threat. If they have no potency, then what does it matter whether they exist or not, or whether anyone notices them or not? It would merely be an exercise in Kudos for the sake of Kudos.

Precisely.

Greg

And they have not much more potency in living their own lives. A religion of "submission" is a religion of subjugation, of oneself and others. Praying five times a day pushes "God" in and you out. Progress too. A productive and creative mind needs time to itself--a lot of time.

--Brant

...that all depends on the morality of the God you pray to.

From your comments about war you have clearly expressed your subscription to the view of moral equivalency,

Not fighting evil... but fighting is evil.

...so it's perfectly natural that you would regard all gods in exactly the same way.

Greg

Please, Greg. I know there's a little machine in your brain that keeps reactively pumping out this stuff as an argument substitute. I don't like it and it's not true. I spent a long time arguing against moral equivalency with X-ray here on OL. I never gave her one damn inch. Hers was a frontal assault. You keep trying to bite me in the ass, but there's no ass there for you to bite. You're just snapping the air.

I know a lot about fighting wars. You are conflating economy of means with "moral equivalency." That I was against the invasion of Iraq in 2003 doesn't mean I was against bullying Iraq into the same effective result qua legitimate US foreign policy objectives. That I was for invading Afghanistan in 2001 doesn't mean I was in favor of interminably sticking around after kicking Taliban's ass. Etc. You also assume my historical understanding of American wars would have kept me out of WWII if I had been old enough back then with such a knowledge. Not true. Lacking that knowledge I spent a year in Vietnam trying to kill communists. That I wouldn't do again. There's this thing in my head about winning a war and fighting for freedom, not, however, for the freedom of a country to vote itself into slavery. If that's the deal, forget the war; go ahead and vote and get it over with.

--Brant

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Whitney Houston "Welcome Home Heroes" show, Norfolk VA, 1991

USS Nassau is docked nearby, 3000 officers and crew sing-along

 



In support of Operations Desert Shield/Desert Storm, the Nassau deployed to the Middle East for over eight months. On leaving the United States, Nassau became the flagship for Commander, Amphibious Task Force and the 4th MEB's Commanding General. In the last week of the war, she was employed as a "Harrier Carrier" tasked with operating as an attack carrier for Marine AV-8B fighters. [Wikipedia]
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When Jihadists move in, it is reference to all the parts of Islam that the more peaceful followers have chosen to ignore. I saw a perfect example of this on Australia's program, Insight, the other night. It was studio audience participation thing. The topic was "Why are Australians going to fight in Iraq and Syria". As you probably know a Muslim from Sydney photographed his 7 year old son holding up someones head with the caption, "That's my boy". Anyway, there were muslims there arguing that IS were not following Islam. The response from IS supporters was that they do not sugar coat their religion.

Richard refers to an SBS program -- "Why are young Aussies joining the conflicts in Syria and Iraq?" It's well worth a viewing, especially for how the ISIS supporters among the studio audience act and speak and think -- how they justify jihad, how they are attracted to the killing fields in Syria and Iraq. There is a disconnection between the cruel reality of ISIS tactics and governance -- and what the ISIS supporters pretend it to be. If you don't want to watch the whole thing, note this story and excerpt, in which one ISIS supporter walks out of the studio.

What struck me about the program (and the walk-off) was how uninformed, even stupid, were the ISIS supporters.

Another thing that strikes me -- where are the Muslims who reject ISIS in no uncertain terms? I can answer -- right here, right there (in the Australian TV Studio).

If we went out looking for Muslims who reject ISIS, or Islamic governments who reject ISIS, or religious authorities (such as they are) who reject ISIS -- and we will definitely find them -- does this count against assumption that this rejection is not enough?

I have a couple of friends who are Muslim so I personally know the truth that there are good Muslims. My point is that there are too few of them. [...] ...because there are too few good Muslims.

I would ask: how can we quantify? In other words how does Greg know the numbers of good and bad Muslims? How do any of us attempt to assay numbers? Does it matter that (in my opinion and according to my research) every official religious body of influence and consequence -- responsible for the Muslim faithful -- under various regimes, has rejected ISIS and its interpretation/perversion of Islam?

Edited by william.scherk
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Brant,

Moral equivalency in Greg's terms as I understand them is equating Allah with the Christian God.

His standard is his God is better than the other God. (Except he will say the "true God" or something like that instead of "his God." :smile: )

If that's not Greg's position, I'm sure he will correct me

Michael

Well, for me that's literally nothing with nothing. If he's speaking metaphorically it's not applicable to me. Today at least the Christian religion has it all over the Muslim except it has no balls any more. The default has become the secular.

--Brant

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I have a couple of friends who are Muslim so I personally know the truth that there are good Muslims. My point is that there are too few of them. [...] ...because there are too few good Muslims.

I would ask: how can we quantify? In other words how does Greg know the numbers of good and bad Muslims?

Very simple. By observing the dominance of the Islamic fascists and the lack of any real opposition from the Muslems. The Muslems who don't oppose the Islamic fascists are not good Muslems.

Sorry... it's the person who owns the Rottweiler who only appears to be nice...when in reality he likes his dog to be vicious.

Greg

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