The Police vs. The Blacks

[zantonavitch]

Remarkable and passionate discussion about America's recent "police vs. blacks" controversy: http://www.rationalargumentator.com/index/blog/2015/07/handcuffed-and-helpless/

[Brant Gaede]

I had a nightmare last night about a cop taking my shotgun. (True.) I got it back but not the ammo. The cop was afraid of any non-cop with a loaded gun. They were afraid I might shoot them. He had a point after that experience. Anyway, my bad dreams always segue to better things so I never wake up screaming. I trained myself to do that. I also trained myself not to wet my bed (it wasn't yesterday), but I digress.

--White man vs cops

[Brant Gaede]

Remarkable and passionate discussion about America's recent "police vs. blacks" controversy: http://www.rationalargumentator.com/index/blog/2015/07/handcuffed-and-helpless/

Blacks get it worse but whites get it too.

--Brant

technology is helping change these things

[Peter]

T. K. Coleman, an African American citizen wrote on July 28, 2015: . . . . There’s this naive idea floating around that people should never be afraid of cops as long as they’re innocent and compliant. For a lot of people in this country, that’s simply not true. This isn’t about playing some mythical race-card, nor is it about me promoting the idea that all cops are evil. I’m sure there are lots of cops who are nice to their kids and fun to hang out with when they’re having beer with their buddies. (I’m also sure that’s true of a lot of so-called thugs.) . . . But if we want to have intelligent discussions about authority in this country, we have to stop using a logic that tells us that people in authority always have a fair reason for doing what they do. We do a lot of talking about what people can do to avoid being abused by cops. We don’t talk as much as we should about the abuse that happens. end quote

Kyrel responded: Such bullshit. Even if everything he wrote is generally true — which it obviously isn’t — then Coleman is a massive lowlife for first saying and doing nothing, and he’s a massive lowlife now for not morally condemning and hating the cops. The police are fundamentally vermin. No-one hates them more than me. But this article is a major lie and smear. end quote

It does sound like *left wing narratives* which are simply propaganda as with the UVA rape story in Rolling Stone Magazine. It was retracted after a lot of damage was done to innocent people (who are suing UVA.) But what the heck? You hate the police more than anyone else? Are you trying to cop (joke) some street cred? I remember the black guy in dreadlocks who dressed in a tuxedo, and expensive shoes, years ago, and walked through Beverly Hills. He was pulled over by the police time after time because though he did not dress like a thief he was black and his *profile* therefor predicted a greater than 60 percent possibility and probability that he was a thief or a thug. He did not belong in an affluent, nearly all white, neighborhood AND EVERYBODY KNEW THAT. Of course his treks were to support a political and personal vendetta against white police.

I think dash cams and body cams as well as police training and outreach to schools, will nearly eliminate or at least lessen unprofessional police behavior. The problem will continue to be the disproportionate criminal behavior of blacks and even their reaction when dealing with a police officer when they are innocent of any offense. As Chris Rock advises black people, Don’t be stupid.

[Selene]

And we would find his response where?

Kyrel responded: Such bullshit. Even if everything he wrote is generally true — which it obviously isn’t — then Coleman is a massive lowlife for first saying and doing nothing, and he’s a massive lowlife now for not morally condemning and hating the cops. The police are fundamentally vermin. No-one hates them more than me. But this article is a major lie and smear. end quote

Remember when you agreed to put the post # of the quote in your post?

Why do you have to be so fucking difficult about something so simple that an idiot like me can figure out how to use the quote function.

A...

[zantonavitch]

I was shocked that Mr. Coleman chose to reply -- at least initially -- to my comments on The Rational Augumentor. This makes his story considerably more credible, in my view, and I regret a bit my loose, quick, initial analysis. But the truth is that at practically every high-publicity "racial incident" the police seem ultra-quick to lie and the racist blacks too.

[moralist]

I think dash cams and body cams as well as police training and outreach to schools, will nearly eliminate or at least lessen unprofessional police behavior. The problem will continue to be the disproportionate criminal behavior of blacks and even their reaction when dealing with a police officer when they are innocent of any offense.

Cams are the technological equivalent of Conscience... That which observes everything we do.

If blacks governed their own behavior, they wouldn't need their behavior to be governed by the police.

Greg

[Brant Gaede]

I think dash cams and body cams as well as police training and outreach to schools, will nearly eliminate or at least lessen unprofessional police behavior. The problem will continue to be the disproportionate criminal behavior of blacks and even their reaction when dealing with a police officer when they are innocent of any offense.

Cams are the technological equivalent of Conscience... That which observes everything we do.

If blacks governed their own behavior, they wouldn't need their behavior to be governed by the police.

Greg

Aside from the fact that blacks generally do govern their own behavior, we (oops!) can say "and vice versa."

--Brant

[moralist]

Aside from the fact that blacks generally do govern their own behavior...

... not when proportionally compared to others.

Higher incarceration rates attest to that fact.

Greg

[Derek McGowan]

Higher incarceration rates attest to that fact.

Greg

God dammit Moralist, you too? ......

[Peter]

The quote was from the link Madman, Adam.

As to profiling? It will continue to be done. Or the policeman will die - or the bomb or weapon will be brought onto the plane. Claiming that common sense, reasonable profiling, and using statistical analysis is racism, well that IS racism. I don't care if it is the cop on the beat, the soldier at the checkpoint, or the little kid on the playground - all humans use their senses and reasoning to respond to a perceived threat. Flight or fight is instinctual at the perceptual level (you hear a bang and you jump. You see a bear and you get ready to run) and at the level of reasoning it is still automatically based on past knowledge and experience. Only long after the quickly perceived or reasoned threat do we do an analysis and apologize for what you were thinking, if you are wrong. Kyrel mentioned (at his link Adam) that cops must stop lying! And as Brant says the cameras are our conscience. Better training and professionalism are becoming a reality in police circles but as the chaos in Baltimore illustrates no lesson is being learned in a universal sense in minority neighborhoods especially among younger black men.

[Brant Gaede]

Aside from the fact that blacks generally do govern their own behavior...

... not when proportionally compared to others.

Higher incarceration rates attest to that fact.

Greg

"Proportionally" is collectivism and, in this case, racism.

--Brant

"the lowest form of collectivism" (Rand)

hanging fast ball

[Peter]

The truth does not change according to our ability to stomach it. -- Flannery O'Connor

Brant, the idea that *race* will no longer be a viable term is predicated on the idea that we are all sufficiently the same, so that differences are irrelevant. The hypothesis is: As inter-racial DNA is mingled we will become more closely related, until centuries from now all of humanity will resemble a Coppertone commercial where we all just have a “good tan.” And General Intelligence actually rises.

If the opposite is supported by the Human Genome Project, perhaps that the races have separated sufficiently for “humanity” to be considered as containing “sub species,” what will be different about our view of the universe? Will the evidence be suppressed, except in the inner scientific community, so that a Orwellian, socialist - egalitarian “right-think” can be achieved? I hope not. At the least, there are medical reasons to use race and ethnicity as a determining factor in treatments like medicines and preventive therapy. Or for a cop in a ghetto neighborhood. Or for a guard on the Israeli’s border.

On page 127 “Racism,” from The Virtue of Selfishness, Rand writes: A genius is a genius, regardless of the number of morons who belong to the same race—and a moron is a moron, regardless of the number of geniuses who share his racial origin. end quote

No reasoning person *believes* in chemical predestination. But I think there is a correlation between genetics and attributes. ALL scientists think that. In the quote at the bottom, Rand was issuing a blanket statement against racism, but I do not think that the scientific thinker that she was, would question the epistemological validity of the scientific method, and genetics and statistics as well as observation are necessary for a *fact* to be true.

I can only imagine what it would be like to be a Jew in Nazi Germany, or a Jew anywhere during the Second World War. Nazi science was bogus. It was propaganda not just found in Germany but in France and other countries even to this day. All I am suggestion is do not throw out science with the propaganda. Base your thinking and reactions to people on facts.
Peter

“Racism,” from The Virtue of Selfishness, p. 126: Racism is the lowest, most crudely primitive form of collectivism. It is the notion of ascribing moral, social or political significance to a man’s genetic lineage—the notion that a man’s intellectual and characterological traits are produced and transmitted by his internal body chemistry. Which means, in practice, that a man is to be judged, not by his own character and actions, but by the characters and actions of a collective of ancestors.
Racism claims that the content of a man’s mind (not his cognitive apparatus, but its content) is inherited; that a man’s convictions, values and character are determined before he is born, by physical factors beyond his control. This is the caveman’s version of the doctrine of innate ideas—or of inherited knowledge—which has been thoroughly refuted by philosophy and science. Racism is a doctrine of, by and for brutes. It is a barnyard or stock-farm version of collectivism, appropriate to a mentality that differentiates between various breeds of animals, but not between animals and men.
Like every form of determinism, racism invalidates the specific attribute which distinguishes man from all other living species: his rational faculty. Racism negates two aspects of man’s life: reason and choice, or mind and morality, replacing them with chemical predestination. end quote

[Selene]

The quote was from the link Madman, Adam.

What are you talking about?

Kyrel's quote was from Madmen????

http://www.objectivistliving.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=15413&page=1#entry236047

[moralist]

Aside from the fact that blacks generally do govern their own behavior...

... not when proportionally compared to others.

Higher incarceration rates attest to that fact.

Greg

"Proportionally" is collectivism and, in this case, racism.

Not racist at all, Brant.

75% fatherless black babies is a black value. They embedded it into their culture. Completely self inflicted.

Greg

[Brant Gaede]

Aside from the fact that blacks generally do govern their own behavior...

... not when proportionally compared to others.

Higher incarceration rates attest to that fact.

Greg

"Proportionally" is collectivism and, in this case, racism.

Not racist at all, Brant.

75% fatherless black babies is a black value. They embedded it into their culture. Completely self inflicted.

Greg

That's the enslaving liberal get the poor vote value except that's your orientation, not mine--that is valuing is for an individual and group valuing is for collectivism and doesn't, cannot exist except as a short-hand way of making a point leaving racism in its wake. Hence, I'm not saying you're a racist but racism can drop off some of your comments.

--Brant

"fatherless": artificial insemination at the voting place?

[william.scherk]

And we would find his response where?

Follow the link in the topic post #1 and read Kyrel's argument with the author of the piece Handcuffed and Helpless – Article by T.K. Coleman: http://www.rationalargumentator.com/index/blog/2015/07/handcuffed-and-helpless/

There are sixteen comments following the article. Kyrel was shocked when Coleman answered his nasty and bizarre commentary and suggested a recorded interview. Kyrel thought Coleman was bullshitting. Coleman sounds reasonable. Kyrel sounds unbalanced. Samples:

My quick take on racist blacks and fascist cops is this: these two loathsome groups deserve each other. link

As far as I can tell, I’m the most formidable intellectual warrior on the planet, and that you even try to substantively respond is to your credit. link

With all due respect and modesty, I think I know blacks far better than they know themselves. I think I know the police far better than they know themselves. I’m a forced-anthropologist stuck here on Planet Hell. link

I'll add a direct link to Kyrel's quote from Peter's paragraph. I am not sure why he has an apparent aversion to including URLs in his text, generally. In this case he followed Kyrel's link to the crazy talk and then quoted it:

Kyrel responded: Such bullshit. Even if everything he wrote is generally true — which it obviously isn’t — then Coleman is a massive lowlife for first saying and doing nothing, and he’s a massive lowlife now for not morally condemning and hating the cops. The police are fundamentally vermin. No-one hates them more than me. But this article is a major lie and smear. end quote

Remember when you agreed to put the post # of the quote in your post?

Why do you have to be so fucking difficult about something so simple that an idiot like me can figure out how to use the quote function.

Put yourself in Peter's shoes; he might feel the same way as you do when a finger-wagger asks/demands for a link to quoted material.

I do think Peter is incorrigible on the quoting issue. He is in the groove of habit. Phil was similarly handicapped by an old Usenet quoting convention. In this instance, he quoted from the page linked to above.

[Selene]

Thanks Bill.

I kinda figured where it was from.

I do not do comments, not enough time. I am certainly not going to look for Kyrel's comments.

I have dealt with enough bigots in my life. I do not like him.

I like even less that someone with his bigotry promotes Ayn's thoughts. However, he has the right to be a bigot and I have the right to shun him.

A...

[moralist]

that is valuing is for an individual and group valuing is for collectivism and doesn't, cannot exist except as a short-hand way of making a point leaving racism in its wake.

As in Chemistry, you can accurately predict how groups of molecules will behave... yet it is impossible to predict how an individual electron will behave.

There are certainly individual decent blacks who behave contrary to their popular culture by being Fathers to their own children...

...about 25% !

Greg

[Brant Gaede]

"The most formidable intellectual warrior on the planet.^"

That requires a sense of humor.

--Brant

[Peter]

I snipped a few blurbs from the free, online encyclopedia, which appear at the bottom, Kyrel, Brant, Greg, Bill and all. What is crucial to understand in our PC propaganda culture, is one of the last sentences cited, “. . . political and ethical issues due to interpretations of research results.” I remember watching a video of Evolutionary scientists at a conference which I think was in South Africa. There were two black, African scientists on camera and the leading proponent of the out of Africa theory was saying Africans were the first humans. The black scientists beamed at that. Wow. Let’s take credit for being the first humans which gave them some unearned credit as members of their race. But then the leading scientists starting talking about further evolutions of humans and the current differentiation required when discussing traits like intelligence, etc., and they started to bridle. Of course my evidence is my memory and my interpretations of emotions and thinking as seen through a hand held phone camera . . . so I do think I will read some more before I comment some more on this subject.
Peter

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia, Evolutionary psychology. Citing genetic research by Cavalli-Sforza, the African Eve hypothesis, and the out of Africa theory, Rushton writes that Negroids branched off first (200,000 years ago), Caucasoids second (110,000 years ago), and Mongoloids last (41,000 years ago), arguing that throughout all of evolution, more ancient forms of life (i.e. plants, bacteria, reptiles) are less evolved than more recent forms of life (i.e. mammals, primates, humans) and that the much smaller variation in the races is consistent with this trend. "One theoretical possibility," said Rushton "is that evolution is progressive and that some populations are more advanced than others". Rushton argues that this evolutionary history correlates with, and is responsible for, a consistent global racial pattern which explains many variables such as worldwide crime statistics or the global distribution of AIDS . . . .

Evolutionary psychology is an approach that views human nature as the product of a universal set of evolved psychological adaptations to recurring problems in the ancestral environment. Proponents of EP suggest that it seeks to integrate psychology into the other natural sciences, rooting it in the organizing theory of biology (evolutionary theory), and thus understanding psychology as a branch of biology. Anthropologist John Tooby and psychologist Leda Cosmides note: . . . .

Controversies concerning EP involve questions of testability, cognitive and evolutionary assumptions (such as modular functioning of the brain, and large uncertainty about the ancestral environment), importance of non-genetic and non-adaptive explanations, as well as political and ethical issues due to interpretations of research results.

[Brant Gaede]

Peter, as interesting as this might be we who are not physical anthropologists need to get back to the future and put aside this out-of-Africa investigation for an objective evaluation of who we are not who we were ancestorally. As humans we all are different in our skills, brains and everything else. I do not feel racially inferior--or just plain inferior for that matter--to a black fellow who has a PhD in mathematics and who can do math circles around me and no black should feel racially inferior to a white who can do the same respecting him. Racial inferiority-superiority is racism. The anecdote to this expression of collectivism is individualism and personal character and concomitant values. That I wish as a young man I had had Michael Jordan basketball skills has never been wishing I had been born black as the first step to have had them. My fantasy has always been me as a white boy doing that. Why? Because I am a white boy. There are great white players. My compensation was watching him play and imagining me doing what he was doing. Now, however, as part of my fantasy of being a near-naked hunter with a spear on the African plains, suddenly I am a black man. Why? So I won't have to put on sun screen--who wants skin cancer?--and generally look ridiculous being out of both place and time. The best I can do as whitey in Africa would be Cornel Wilde in The Naked Prey. I'd never do a Stanley-Livingston nor get on that boat in The Heart of Darkness or imagine myself a colonial.

--Brant

call me black, call me white; call me again and again, but I won't hear you: my name is "Brant"

[Peter]

Well said, Again and Again. What a unique name. Up til now my favorite black name was Lemonjello. Thanks Brant. I don't want to seem like the Trumpasaurus and tick people off. Well not toooo much.

[moralist]

The anecdote to this expression of collectivism is individualism and personal character and concomitant values.

From the context, I believe you meant to say "antidote".

Consider it a compliment that this is the only thing I could find wrong with your excellent post, Brant.

Greg

[Brant Gaede]

Nutz!