North Korea Declares War on America

[Selene]

If folks start getting suspicious of our elected officials, how easy do you think it'll be to mobilize the country into another war?

Um, we are currently in a war Frank.

A...

[william.scherk]

If you had to turn your post into a precis, William, what would you write?

I'd write something like this:

It's disappointing that respected OLers sometimes repeat as fact unproven or preposterous canards

I will later tackle the BS about France's 700-odd Muslim-dominated, cop-free, state-abandoned sharia-enforced "No-Go" zones via the Daniel Pipes tripe on sale as linked above.

Jules, what will some research tell us about No-Go Zones in Sweden worse than France?

Edited January 10, 2015 by william.scherk

[Selene]

If you had to turn your post into a precis, William, what would you write?

I'd write something like this:

It's disappointing that respected OLers sometimes repeat as fact unproven or preposterous canards

I will later tackle the BS about France's 700-odd Muslim-dominated, cop-free, state-abandoned sharia-enforced "No-Go" zones via the Daniel Pipes tripe on sale as linked above.

I call question begging...

An argument that improperly assumes as true the very point the speaker is trying to argue for is said in formal logic to “beg the question.” Here is an example of a question-begging argument: “This painting is trash because it is obviously worthless.” The speaker is simply asserting the worthlessness of the work, not presenting any evidence to demonstrate that this is in fact the case. Since we never use “begs” with this odd meaning (“to improperly take for granted”) in any other phrase, most people now suppose the phrase implies something quite different: that the argument demands that a question about it be asked—raises the question. Although using the expression in its original sense is now rare, using it in the newer sense will cause irritation among traditionalists.

"Tripe" ?

I have no clue whether it is true or not, I just ran a quick search because all the media and the French government has admitted that these "no-go zones" exist as far as I know they do.

I have some French libertarians that I am in communication with on occassion and I could ask them.

I do not think there is any dispute that they exist.

I was looking for a number and hopefully a map. Haven't found a map yet.

A...

[Jules Troy]

What is happening in Sweden Bill is that they are so PC that anyone dissenting and saying "hey Islam sucks" can go to jail for hate crimes while they ignore with their head in the sand that 6000 violent rapes/year are perpetrated by muslim immigrants. If someone says do something about this they are being persecuted for being intolerant. The crimes go unpunished because they are afraid of offending Islam. As soon as the perps are identified as being muslim it is swept under the carpet. Sweden just voted to recognize Palestine. Palestine has never existed.

Sweden is becoming an Islamic state and they fucking well deserve it.

[Francisco Ferrer]

If folks start getting suspicious of our elected officials, how easy do you think it'll be to mobilize the country into another war?

Um, we are currently in a war Frank.

A...

Um, that's why I said "another," Selly.

[Francisco Ferrer]

What is happening in Sweden Bill is that they are so PC that anyone dissenting and saying "hey Islam sucks" can go to jail for hate crimes while they ignore with their head in the sand that 6000 violent rapes/year are perpetrated by muslim immigrants. If someone says do something about this they are being persecuted for being intolerant. The crimes go unpunished because they are afraid of offending Islam. As soon as the perps are identified as being muslim it is swept under the carpet. Sweden just voted to recognize Palestine. Palestine has never existed.

Sweden is becoming an Islamic state and they fucking well deserve it.

Doesn't everyone get what they deserve?

[Brant Gaede]

What is happening in Sweden Bill is that they are so PC that anyone dissenting and saying "hey Islam sucks" can go to jail for hate crimes while they ignore with their head in the sand that 6000 violent rapes/year are perpetrated by muslim immigrants. If someone says do something about this they are being persecuted for being intolerant. The crimes go unpunished because they are afraid of offending Islam. As soon as the perps are identified as being muslim it is swept under the carpet. Sweden just voted to recognize Palestine. Palestine has never existed.

Sweden is becoming an Islamic state and they fucking well deserve it.

Doesn't everyone get what they deserve?

Frankie Avalon did.

--Brant

[Francisco Ferrer]

According to Just Deserts Theory, even French cartoonists get their proper reward.

[Brant Gaede]

According to Just Deserts Theory, even French cartoonists get their proper reward.

Frankly, they were rewarded for not turning their offices into safe rooms and not having serious private security and not being dispersed, quite possible in this electronic age. Instead they all got together for essentially social if not creative reasons. It's somewhat like the World Trade Center twin towers not being abandoned by the tenants after that first failed attempt to bring down one of them. Oh, yeah, that didn't work and next time they'll do exactly what they did the first time and fail again. Not to worry. Let's just do the old same-same. Rick Rescorla knew better. The entire human world is dominated by inertia. It's comforting and reassuring, like the womb, I suppose. "Preppers" are sneered at. Noah laughed at. Some kind of default principle of being. Above all, no critical thinking--let someone else do it, and since it's worthless, don't bother telling us about any conclusions for they aren't of any value anyway for we still won't think about them.

--Brant

[Selene]

Rick Rescorla knew better.

Thanks Brant, I did not know his story.

Cyril Richard "Rick" Rescorla (May 27, 1939 – September 11, 2001) was a retired United States Army officer of British birth who served with distinction in Northern Rhodesia as a member of the Northern Rhodesia Police (NRP) and as a soldier in the Vietnam War, where he was a Second Lieutenant in the United States Army.[2] As the director of security for the financial services firm Morgan Stanley at the World Trade Center, Rescorla anticipated both attacks on the towers and implemented evacuation procedures credited with saving many lives. He died in the aftermath of the attacks of September 11, 2001, while leading evacuees from the South Tower.

Interesting...

He then served as a paramilitary police inspector in the Northern Rhodesia Police (now the Zambia Police Service)[4] from 1960 to 1963, experiences which made him a fierce anti-Communist.[3] It was during the latter post that he met and forged a "life-altering friendship" with American soldier Daniel J. Hill, who inspired Rescorla to join the U.S. Army and fight in Vietnam[4] in order to fight the communists.[3]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rick_Rescorla

[Selene]

Boy am I dumb!

I read his book We Were Soldiers Once, and Young. Loved it and loved the movie.

A...

[Backlighting]

What a great film.

[BaalChatzaf]

What a great film.

It was a feast for the eyes: Moo Shi Gook.

[Francisco Ferrer]

Mo Shi Gook? Do you mean "moo shu"?

[Brant Gaede]

It was human beings being cut to pieces.

--Brant

[Brant Gaede]

"Gook" was a racial slur directed against Koreans then somewhat carried over to the Vietnamese a decade later. The main racial slur for Vietnamese, however, was "slope." I and my teammates never used it.

--Brant

[Francisco Ferrer]

Perhaps "Mo Shi Gook" illustrates the sort of idealism that drove some participants (and armchair observers) of that conflict.

[BaalChatzaf]

Mo Shi Gook? Do you mean "moo shu"?

Moo Shu it is.

[william.scherk]

Everyone, I would hope, is aware that there are "no go zones" in France.

Apparently, in 2006, France had some 751 "no go zones:"

http://www.danielpipes.org/blog/2006/11/the-751-no-go-zones-of-france

Daniel Pipes misrepresents several pieces of information in his article -- though he is not alone in repeating preposterous nonsense on the subject of "No Go Zones" in France. Here's his opener -- and I underline the howliest of the howlers:

They go by the euphemistic term Zones Urbaines Sensibles, or Sensitive Urban Zones, with the even more antiseptic acronym ZUS, and there are 751 of them as of last count. They are convienently listed on one long webpage, complete with street demarcations and map delineations.

What are they? Those places in France that the French state does not control. They range from two zones in the medieval town of Carcassone to twelve in the heavily Muslim town of Marseilles, with hardly a town in France lacking in its ZUS. The ZUS came into existence in late 1996 and according to a 2004 estimate, nearly 5 million people live in them.

Comment: A more precise name for these zones would be Dar al-Islam, the place where Muslims rule. (November 14, 2006)

I will leave it to a commenter at Pipes' blog to add some necessary skepticism:

The claim implicit in the headline "The 751 No Go Zones of France" is basically nonsense.

Yes there are 751 ZUS, but to claim, as Mr Pipes tries to, that these are all Muslim areas off limits to the French people and state is simply ignorant fantasy, unrelated to reality. Given that 20 of them are located in the French DOM/TOM(French Pacific and Caribbean islands and territories), where the number of Muslims is either tiny or zero, Mr Pipes' thesis fails.

In reality, ... the various ZUS were set up under the French law No 96-1156 of November - December 1996. They define, and delineate, areas in France which are in need of regeneration. Such areas are generally characterised by a high proportion of social housing(HLM)/low home ownership, high unemployment, and low ratio of high school graduation.

There are three types of ZUS, which are characterised by what tax reliefs are available., The most difficult are classed as ZFUs , or Urban Tax-Free Zones.

I could expand at length on this, but shall not. The basic, willful error of Pipes is in conflating and distorting information. France is a developed country, has a national police, and does not allow state control of territory out of its hands. It is true that France's Zones Urbains Sensibles are a kind of version of the USA's 'poor ghettos' and it is true that France faces challenges in its blighted, segregated communities. It is not true that these zones given official attention are No Go.

It should be clear that 'special development' or 'special attention' zones assembled by the French government for its bureaucratic attentions and leftist meddling -- are a whole other thing than the fantastic distortion peddled by Pipes and his ilk. I do not trust anything out of Pipes' pipe ... not since he so badly misrepresents this notion.

I mean, how would we know? Who is the last of us to visit any of these Zones in France?

Here is some more horseshit peddled straight up, this time by Robert Spencer:

In this Hannity interview on Fox News on 9 January, 2015, American author Robert Spencer said that:

"So in France they have set up - the French government lists on a public web-site -751 no-go areas, where essentially the police have no authority, the French state has no authority and Islamic law prevails"

Here's a response at the skeptic link above: "Are there officially pronounced no-go Islamic zones in France?"

TL;DR: Those regions are poor areas considered as priority for public help by the French government to reduce inequalities. It has nothing to do with Islamic law or police patrols.

I'm a French citizen.

So what are the ZUS (Zone Urbaine Sensible)?

They are sensitive urban areas where the local politic should put effort. Those are poor neighborhoods and they are classified as ZUS, to encourage so companies that to settle into those areas - e.g. by offering tax breaks.

I live in the city of Toulouse. There are four ZUS in Toulouse. I know people who live there. They are not surrounded by Islamists. Islamic law does not apply there. There are primary schools, high schools, kindergartens and hospitals in these areas. In Toulouse, one of these areas is also the location of a university campus.

Police do patrol those areas, and French laws apply.

At times (e.g. during the night), however, there are small areas that may be controlled by drug dealers and some violence occurs there. I guess it's the same in the US. Nothing to do with Islam though; just normal poverty, drugs and violence in the ghetto.

There are a lot of classified areas like these in France. For instance:

• ZRR: "Zone de revitalisation rurale" (country revitalizing areas) for poor agricultural areas in the country. (No islamic law there also.)
• ZEP: "Zone d'éducation prioritaire" (priority education area) for schools that are in poor neighborhoodx and may need extra money. (Yes, they are often located inside ZUS)

For reference, here is a list of ZUS from french government.

One example of a ZRU (a sub-category of ZUS) from that list is La Reynerie/Bellefontaine.

Haute Garonne (31) Toulouse La Reynerie, Bellefontaine. ZRU

It's a poor neighborhood with a lot of immigrants, a majority of them from North-Africa.

On the map of this area from the French Government, you can the Université (University), and Col Ec.(junior high school) and Ec. (school).

On the Google Map of the area, you can see Témoins de Jéhovah: Jehovah witness building, which is evidence that Islamic law does not apply int he area.

On to another related claim ...

No go zones, 6000+ rapes/year..

-- this is Sweden. Where are the supposed No Go Zones, Jules? Where is the evidence of Sweden being worse than France, in terms of No Go Zones? Is there something other than what you say to give us a detailed picture of Sweden's area that the state does not control?

I will later tackle the BS about France's 700-odd Muslim-dominated, cop-free, state-abandoned sharia-enforced "No-Go" zones via the Daniel Pipes tripe on sale as linked above.

I call question begging...¸

I know what it means: assuming as correct something essential to an argument's conclusion. Petitio principii or whatever.

So, not having yet presented an argument about said tripe but promising a later tackle, I slither off the hook ...

An argument that improperly assumes as true the very point the speaker is trying to argue for is said in formal logic to “beg the question.” Here is an example of a question-begging argument: “This painting is trash because it is obviously worthless.” The speaker is simply asserting the worthlessness of the work, not presenting any evidence to demonstrate that this is in fact the case. Since we never use “begs” with this odd meaning (“to improperly take for granted”) in any other phrase, most people now suppose the phrase implies something quite different: that the argument demands that a question about it be asked—raises the question. Although using the expression in its original sense is now rare, using it in the newer sense will cause irritation among traditionalists.

"Tripe" ?

Tripe.

I have no clue whether it is true or not, I just ran a quick search because all the media and the French government has admitted that these "no-go zones" exist as far as I know they do.

It's the combination that Pipes and others have confected that is wrong: that the French government has identified seven hundred No-Go for the French State, given up to Muslim Control.

Running a quick search is fine, but you can't just take the first thing you find and toss it in a discussion as a fact. At least search down a critical response to the article, and consider the claim and counter-argument.

Now, "all the media" is a big mess, and "the French Government has admitted" to the canard -- this is another route to the swamp.

Have I helped change your mind? You started out saying "Everyone, I would hope, is aware that there are "no go zones" in France." Now you have some information sources to explore ...

I have some French libertarians that I am in communication with on occassion and I could ask them.

Ask them about the exact claim as made by Pipes, if you can. And ask where they live. We can look up the ZUS in their areas.

I do not think there is any dispute that they exist.

Well, that's the thing. As described by Pipes, they don't exist. The French state was obviously in the frigging 'no go' places to collect the statistics and demographics that led the French state to say: "these are areas that need special attention."

So, dispute what I say, now, please. Hilarity will perhaps ensue.

I was looking for a number and hopefully a map. Haven't found a map yet.

Here's a link the national map, and here a link to the list -- which itself offers map links for each Zone. The link was in the freaking Pipes article that you set out. Here's a screenshot of the map zoomed in to Paris. One of the 'no go zones' adjoins the site of the Jewish supermarket attack at the Porte de Vincennes.

What is happening in Sweden Bill is that they are so PC that anyone dissenting and saying "hey Islam sucks" can go to jail for hate crimes while they ignore with their head in the sand that 6000 violent rapes/year are perpetrated by muslim immigrants.

I take issue with your numbers. Where do they come from? What is the number of "violent rapes" in Sweden, and what makes you think Sweden collects 'religious' information of assailants from victims of violent rapes? It's hard to fact-check with no references. You say six thousand violent rapes a year are perpetrated by Muslim immigrants. But you have offered nothing to back it up.

I feel chagrin that we whip round alarming statistics, and as with Ed's numbers, they are borrowed uncritically. I wish we all could be more hard-eyed on claims about The Muslim, especially when they are trotted out by unreliable authors (as with Pipes).

More to the point, Jules, would you be willing to do some more research on your own, to double check with yourself that your claims are solid?

Let me say that I did my usual sloppy Scherk look around for what might form the basis of your remarks -- the warrants. I'm hoping you are fair-minded enough to consider that the alarming menace of Muslim in Sweden may be exaggerated or distorted.

It is true that 'immigrant' people are overrepresented in the criminal statistics in Norway and Sweden. It's true that Norwegian and Swedish integration has not been like Canada's. In both those countries, newly arrived immigrants or asylum seekers and families of immigrant background get steered to the same public housing that other immigrants have been housed in. The concentrations in some urban areas of immigrants or those 'non-Western' citizens is evident.

But you said Sweden is worse than France in terms of No Go Zones. Do you have anything to back that up?

If you want to talk about Sweden and how they deal with immigration, compared to Canada, say, we could have a good discussion. But I think alarming statements obscure more than they enlighten. They lead too often to prejudice, hate and fear.

As Objectivists, objectivists, Rand-admirers, or just regular folks who use their noggins, we observe rational means of getting at the truth of this or that matter. We need to be aware that information-bites and memes can be corrosively wrong, and we need our best mental game when figuring out What is What.

My chagrin is that I get such a struggle over the basics: fact-checking, drilling down to the source materials. Ed has flown the coop when challenged on his preposterous fact claims in another thread. What do we do when asked "how do you know?"?

I am vigilant on things Muslim because it matters to me and because it is something I need to get right in my own mind. If we build our opinions or conclusions on preposterous nonsense, we fail out of the gate.

If someone says do something about this they are being persecuted for being intolerant. The crimes go unpunished because they are afraid of offending Islam.

Back it up with something, Jules! Sweden has hate-speech laws, much like Canada. I think you might be thinking of a case where a Swedish politician was fined for "Offending Islam."

As soon as the perps are identified as being muslim it is swept under the carpet. Sweden just voted to recognize Palestine. Palestine has never existed.

Sweden is becoming an Islamic state and they fucking well deserve it.

What can anybody say to that?

Anyway, back to the tripe. This is what FoxNews is running today ... about those hundreds of no-go zones all over Europe. Steve Emerson later apologized for some of his remarks about Birmingham, UK.** From his The Investigative Project on Terrorism. Here is another bullshit report from FoxNews Insider blog, "Hundreds of 'No-Go Zones' Across France Are Off-Limits to Non-Muslims."

There are an estimated 750 no-go zones across France, large, insular neighborhoods where the government has all but surrendered authority to the Muslim community.

Many of these areas are governed by Islamic Sharia law, and the state is unable to provide even basic public aid such as police, fire and ambulance services.

Jeanine Pirro: Developing tonight, new reports that terrorist sleeper cells may have been activated in France. This as we're learning new details about hundreds of no-go zones across France and other countries that are off limits to non-Muslims. Steve Emerson, founder of the Investigative Project joins us. Alright Steve, my last guest told us some chilling details about these no-go zones. What more can you tell us about these zones, Steve?

Steve Emerson: Well these no-go zones exist not only in France, but they exist throughout Europe. They're sort of amorphous, they're not contiguous necessarily, but they're sort of safe havens and they're places where the governments like France, Britain, Sweden, Germany don't exercise any sovereignty. So you basically have zones where Shariah courts were set up, where Muslim density is very intense, where the police don't go in, and where it's basically a separate country almost, a country within a country.

Pirro: You know what it sounds like to me, Steve? It sounds like a caliphate within a particular country.

Emerson: It certainly does sound like that. It's almost the prescription that they're asking Israel to do, which is to set up a separate state within their own state, except they're not recognizing it. And they're not dealing with it because they don't want to; I got into a tweet fight with the French ambassador who denied that there are any such things as no-go zones, except on the French official website it says there are and it actually has a map of them…. [A]nd in Britain, it's not just no-go zones, there are actual cities like Birmingham that are totally Muslim where non-Muslims just simply don't go in. And parts of London, there are actually Muslim religious police that actually beat and actually wound seriously anyone who doesn't dress according to Muslim, religious Muslim attire. So there's a situation that Western Europe is not dealing with. And in this country, you know, we have this, you know this selective orientation toward what is radical Islam. The president doesn't [even] say the [words, "radical Islam."] We include Turkey as…our ally, despite the fact that it supports Hamas, it provides safe haven to the leaders of Hamas that coordinate attacks on Israel. Europe just lifted the sanctions on Hamas. So when Europe says or France says, 'We're engaged in a war against radical Islam,' they don't include Hamas, they don't include Hizballah.

Pirro: OK tell me, Steve, is there any way to get these no-go zones back? In other words, does France want it back? Does Belgium want it back? Does Germany want these zones back? Because what's happening is this is metastasizing into a simple takeover. I think even you said Europe is over. What did you say, Steve?

Emerson: I said the other day, Europe is finished because if you extrapolate the number of Muslims [now into the future, you will get Muslim dominated countries] and I'm not saying that all Muslims are terrorists, far from it.

Pirro: Of course not.

Emerson: Because the problem is that the leadership of the Muslim communities in Europe deliberately don't want to integrate. And so they establish these zones which refuse to integrate and use them as leverage against the host country as political and military leverage. So will these countries take it back? I don't see it happening at this point. You see [the] reaction by the population, Judge. But I don't see the country elites taking it [the Muslim no-go zones] back. And that's really unfortunate, because it fosters the whole perpetuation of radical Islamic generations from here to come.

** I have clearly made a terrible error for which I am deeply sorry. My comments about Birmingham were totally in error. And I am issuing this apology and correction for having made this comment about the beautiful city of Birmingham. I do not intend to justify or mitigate my mistake by stating that I had relied on other sources because I should have been much more careful. There was no excuse for making this mistake and I owe an apology to every resident of Birmingham. I am not going to make any excuses. I made an inexcusable error. And I am obligated to openly acknowledge that mistake. I wish to apologize for all residents of that great city of Birmingham.

Steve Emerson

PS. I am making donation to Birmingham Children's Hospital.

-- Emerson was subsequently outed as 'clearly an idiot' by British PM David Cameron.

The bottom line for me is that OLers are swallowing preposterous notions, and not doing essential critical analysis. If we are united in anything here, we are united in using the hard, sharp, tested tools of Reason. In this case, thìs meme of French No-Go Zones is being propagated without the necessary Objectivish work being done.

Surely we want to be seized of accurate information. We do not want to peddle irrational and plainly wrong information.

Edited January 13, 2015 by william.scherk

[Brant Gaede]

So, the No Goes are really Go Goes so it's no go for the No Go.

--Brant

this round to William

trying to think--rethink--but some kind of headache keeps showing up when too many neurons fire

[william.scherk]

Thanks for lightening my load, Brant.

Moving on ... I'm going to a Go-Go. The one thing the French haven't ruined for everyone.

[Selene]

The bottom line for me is that OLers are

greposterous notions, and not doing essential critical analysis. If we are united in anything here, we are united in using the hard, sharp, tested tools of Reason. In this case, thìs meme of French No-Go Zones is being propagated without the necessary Objectivish work being done.

Surely we want to be seized of accurate information. We do not want to peddle irrational and plainly wrong information.

Good work on this William.

Apparently, Fox News' apology has sparked more commentary.

For example, this was in my e-mail this morning:

http://searchlight-germany.blogspot.com/2015/01/european-no-go-zones-fact-or-fiction.html

Consider Carol Matlack, an American writer for Bloomberg Businessweek, who recently penned a story — entitled "Debunking the Myth of Muslim-Only Zones in Major European Cities" — in which she claims that no-go zones are nothing more than an "urban legend" that is "demonstrably untrue." She then goes on to ridicule those who disagree with her.

Matlack includes input from Daniel Pipes, an American political commentator who "says he believes he was the first person to refer to disadvantaged French neighborhoods as no-go zones." (In fact, French commentators have been referring to so-called lawless zones—zones de non-droit—for at least two decades). In a bewildering claim, however, Pipes now asserts that there are "no European countries with no-go zones."

The American cable television channel Fox News has also issued at least four apologies for referring to Muslim no-go zones in Europe, after one commentator erroneously claimed that the entire city of Birmingham, England, was Muslim. Had he simply said that "parts" of Birmingham are Muslim, he would have been correct.

Despite such politically correct denials, Muslim no-go zones are a well-known fact of life in many parts of Europe.

What follows is the first in a multi-part series that will document the reality of Europe's no-go zones. The series begins by focusing on France and provides a brief compilation of just a few of the literally thousands of references to French no-go zones from academic, police, media and government sources that can easily be found on the Internet by doing a simple search on Google.

Fabrice Balanche, a well-known French Islam scholar who teaches at the University of Lyon, recently told Radio Télévision Suisse: "You have territories in France such as Roubaix, such as northern Marseille, where police will not step foot, where the authority of state is completely absent, where mini Islamic states have been formed."

French writer and political journalist Éric Zemmour recently told BFM TV: "There are places in France today, especially in the suburbs, where it is not really in France. Salafi Islamists are Islamizing some neighborhoods and some suburbs. In these neighborhoods, it's not France, it's an Islamic republic." In a separate interview, Zemmour — whose latest book is entitled, "The French Suicide" — says multiculturalism and the reign of politically correct speech is destroying the country.

French politician Franck Guiot wrote that parts of Évry, a township in the southern suburbs of Paris, are no-go zones where police forces cannot go for fear of being attacked. He said that politicians seeking to maintain "social peace" were prohibiting the police from using their weapons to defend themselves.

The Socialist mayor of Amiens, Gilles Demailly, has referred to the Fafet-Brossolette district of the city as a "no-go zone" where "you can no longer order a pizza or get a doctor to come to the house." Europe 1, one of the leading broadcasters in France, has referred to Marseille as a "no-go zone" after the government was forced to deploy riot police, known as CRS, to confront warring Muslim gangs in the city. The French Interior Ministry said it was trying to "reconquer" 184 square kilometers (71 square miles) of Marseille that have come under the control of Muslim gangs.

The French newspaper Le Figaro has referred to downtown Perpignan as a "veritable no-go zone" where "aggression, antisocial behavior, drug trafficking, Muslim communalism, racial tensions and tribal violence" are forcing non-Muslims to move out. Le Figaro also reported that the Les Izards district of Toulouse was a no-go zone, where Arab drug trafficking gangs rule the streets in a climate of fear.

Separately, Le Figaro reported that large quantities of assault rifles are circulating in French no-go zones. "For a few hundred dollars you can buy Kalashnikovs," political scientist Sebastian Roché said. "The price of an iPhone!"

The newspaper France Soir published poll results showing that nearly 60% of French citizens are in favor of sending the army into troubled suburbs to restore order.

The newspaper Le Parisien has called parts of Grigny, a township in the southern suburbs of Paris, a "lawless zone" plagued by well-organized Muslim gangs, whose members believe they are "masters of the world." The weekly newsmagazine Le Point reported on the spiraling Muslim lawlessness in the French city of Grenoble.

There are more references in this article.

A...

[Jules Troy]

I did have a laugh at the clips of fox saying "no go zone" a billion times.

For a real tongue twister try saying "unique New York " ten times really fast. Most people cannot do it. Same with "toy boat". Why is it that this is difficult!?

[anthony]

"No go zones", or open access areas? I expect the reality lies somewhere in between, and mixtures of both. There could well be small pockets of French and other countries' cities where the police have been politely informed that we look after ourselves here, so you don't have to bother - or been intimidated or bribed into staying out.

Not exactly welcoming (quite believable) to outsiders, for the general public, builds a fearful reputation for "Don't ever go there!"

[Selene]

"No go zones", or open access areas? I expect the reality lies somewhere in between, and mixtures of both. There could well be small pockets of French and other countries' cities where the police have been politely informed that we look after ourselves here, so you don't have to bother - or been intimidated or bribed into staying out.

Not exactly welcoming (quite believable) to outsiders, for the general public, builds a fearful reputation for "Don't ever go there!"

We have, and have always had, certain neighborhoods where police rarely go in NY City, e.g., the Red Hook Projects in Brooklyn.