study claims unvaccinated children have less disease

[Brant Gaede]

In Vietnam near the Cambodian border at our Bien Hiep outpost in 1966 a Vietnamese mother brought us her baby suffering from end-stage tetanus. We could do nothing. He died that night. My step-grandmother survived lockjaw in the 1920s.

If your baby isn't protected from tetanus, shame on you.

--Brant

[Selene]

Anybody get one of these?

Quote. Chief objective: To determine whether a Ö poliomyelitis vaccine would afford protection against naturally occurring paralytic poliomyelitis in selected groups of children Ö and if protection is provided, the degree of such protection. End Quote. -Evaluation of the 1954 Field Trial of Poliomyelitis Vaccine: Final Report, 1957

The National Foundation for Infantile Paralysis chose Dr. Thomas Francis Jr. at the University of Michigan to implement the first mass polio vaccine trial in 1954. More than 300,000 people, mostly volunteers, including physicians, nurses, schoolteachers, public health officials, and community members, carried out the work.
Polio pioneer card stating The National Organization for Infantile Paralysis certifies that Helena Wright has been enrolled as a polio pioneer and signed by Basil O'Connor

[Selene]

Such an incredibly different time.

Special to the Times

I am standing in line at Ordean Junior High School in Duluth, Minn. The line is long and my father stands next to me, guiding me forward toward long folding tables holding thousands of tiny white pleated paper cups. We reach the table and I see that each cup contains a white sugar cube but in the center of each cube there is a soft pink drop of liquid. He tells me to take a cup and eat the sugar cube, and I do. I remember I was wearing an odd Sunday hat with a dilapidated nosegay of wilted paper violets attached to the side. I do not remember the drive to the school or the drive home — just the line, the pink droplet sugar cube and standing next to my dad, his hand on my shoulder. We had just been given the gift of the oral polio vaccine. Everyone moved quietly and with a kind of gravity as though we were doing the Stations of the Cross in St. Michael's on Good Friday.

Our family did not go to the doctor unless it was an emergency, like when my brother Joel's appendix burst. We were a family of 12 and the cupboard over the sink held plain aspirin, Pepto-Bismol, iodine and Band-Aids. The best thing about getting the flu was the possibility of, during recovery, being given a jelly jar juice glass of ginger ale. But the sugar cube with the miraculous pink drop was free and all we had to do was stand in line.

The last time I saw a sugar cube was at my eldest sister, Patricia's, wedding. It was a morning ceremony and afterward there was a wedding cake and coffee in the church basement. There were small pitchers of milk and bowls with sugar cubes on a white cloth-covered table. A large coffee urn, cups and saucers were laid out on the table but I returned surreptitiously to the small sugar bowls where I pocketed sugar cubes decorated with miniature candy rosebuds. I hid out in the bathroom stalls, prying the tiny pink and yellow rosebuds off and placing them on my tongue to dissolve as I did with the communion wafer.

A...

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

The following article dated May 31, 2015 is by Sharyl Attkisson. It is not from some anti-vaccine website.

Government Wipes Recent Vaccine Injury Data from Website

From the article:

In March, the federal government removed the latest vaccine injury court statistics—more than a year’s worth of data—from one of its publicly reported charts. It was an abrupt departure from the normal practice of updating the figures monthly.

Wiping the latest data means the “adjudication” chart on a government website no longer reflects the recent, sharp rise in court victories for plaintiffs who claimed their children were seriously injured or killed by one or more vaccines.

Since January of 2014, twice as many victims have won court decisions than the previous eight years combined. In these court decisions, a judge ruled the evidence showed vaccines “more likely than not” caused the plaintiff’s injuries.

Also on the rise is the number of vaccine injury cases the government has “conceded”: up 55% in a little over one year.

As a result of the recent website changes, neither of these trends is reflected on the current “adjudication” chart.

Dontcha luv crony capitalism?

Nothing like big government and big pharma covering each others backs.

Thank goodness for checks and balances, meaning, in this case, a judiciary.

Objectivity on this issue creeps along slowly, but it is finally moving.

Still, I wonder when the scientismists are going to start claiming Sharyl Attkisson herself wants to kill babies with preventable disease...

Michael

[Selene]

In the 1921 trial of the Chicago Black Sox alleged fix of the 1919 World Series the confessions disappeared:

Shortly after the indictments came down, as the old staff of the Office of State's Attorney was ready to be replaced by the newly elected Robert Crowe (the same man who prosecuted the Leopold and Loeb case), some important papers walked out of the office. George Kenney, State Attorney Hoyne's personal secretary, probably for money offered by Attell's local counsel, had lifted the confessions and waivers of immunity of Cicotte, Jackson, and Williams.

It's the Chicago way!

http://www.objectivistliving.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=14221&page=2entry231615

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

And they're still looking for Shoeless Joe Jackson's confession!

Now, almost a century later, the quest to find the most captivating piece of evidence in the case has intensified, luring collectors and fans alike to this week's National Sports Collectors Convention, which is being held in Chicago.

Last month, in the lead up to the convention, a prominent auction house posted a $1 million bounty for Jackson's confession, the city's holy grail of sports memorabilia. "I wouldn't offer $1 million if I didn't think it was worth more than that," said Josh Evans, founder of the New York auction house Lelands.com, who called himself a "treasure hunter."

Many think it is a myth.

http://www.wsj.com/articles/SB10001424127887324136204578641990501023144

A...

[Mikee]

The following article dated May 31, 2015 is by Sharyl Attkisson. It is not from some anti-vaccine website.

Government Wipes Recent Vaccine Injury Data from Website

From the article:

In March, the federal government removed the latest vaccine injury court statistics—more than a year’s worth of data—from one of its publicly reported charts. It was an abrupt departure from the normal practice of updating the figures monthly.

Wiping the latest data means the “adjudication” chart on a government website no longer reflects the recent, sharp rise in court victories for plaintiffs who claimed their children were seriously injured or killed by one or more vaccines.

Since January of 2014, twice as many victims have won court decisions than the previous eight years combined. In these court decisions, a judge ruled the evidence showed vaccines “more likely than not” caused the plaintiff’s injuries.

Also on the rise is the number of vaccine injury cases the government has “conceded”: up 55% in a little over one year.

As a result of the recent website changes, neither of these trends is reflected on the current “adjudication” chart.

Dontcha luv crony capitalism?

Nothing like big government and big pharma covering each others backs.

Thank goodness for checks and balances, meaning, in this case, a judiciary.

Objectivity on this issue creeps along slowly, but it is finally moving.

Still, I wonder when the scientismists are going to start claiming Sharyl Attkisson herself wants to kill babies with preventable disease...

Michael

"The manual identifies a new mental illness called “oppositional defiant disorder” or ODD. Defined as an “ongoing pattern of disobedient, hostile and defiant behavior,” symptoms include questioning authority, negativity, defiance, argumentativeness, and being easily annoyed."

2nd amendment? Not for crazy people. Off to the gulag you disobedient disputatious defiant doubters and deniers. (especially Jerry).

[Mikee]

Wait! There's more: "psychiatry has green lighted a public relations push to spread awareness about their new buzzword “orthorexia nervosa,” defined as “a pathological obsession for biologically pure and healthy nutrition.” In other words, experts are moving toward saying that our demand for nutrient-dense, healthful food is a mental disorder that must be treated.

http://naturalsociety.com/officials-declare-eating-healthy-mental-disorder/#ixzz3c0rplH9J

Did anyone notice that the new forms you fill out at the doc's office (per ACA) ask if you have anxiety issues and if your home contains firearms?

[Selene]

Wait! There's more: "psychiatry has green lighted a public relations push to spread awareness about their new buzzword “orthorexia nervosa,” defined as “a pathological obsession for biologically pure and healthy nutrition.” In other words, experts are moving toward saying that our demand for nutrient-dense, healthful food is a mental disorder that must be treated.

http://naturalsociety.com/officials-declare-eating-healthy-mental-disorder/#ixzz3c0rplH9J

Did anyone notice that the new forms you fill out at the doc's office (per ACA) ask if you have anxiety issues and if your home contains firearms?

As of two months ago, my GP [yes they actually do exist] did not have it on his forms.

I can't wait till I see one because I am going to handle it in a similar way as I handled my juror questionnaire when I turned 21 years old.

A...

[BaalChatzaf]

During the years 1936 to 1956 I lived in the era of Polio Hell. Summertime was the worst. We were warned by our parents to avoid crowds, not to go swimming in the public pools and stay out of movie theaters during the hot months. Not a kid I know (myself included) did not have a friend or acquaintance or family relative that did not get the disease. For some it was just a bad fever and a headache. For some it was partial paralysis. For others it was the Iron Lung and for still others it was death.

Since the Sabin and Salk vaccines were introduced and became widespread polio has virtually disappeared in the advanced industrial nations. The only place to see an Iron Lung is in a museum. Nobody in the first world gets polio anymore. Not one.

Similar reports can be made about small pox. Except for the small pox viruses kept in secret vaults by various governments, small pox has been eliminated Because of vaccines. Ditto for measles and mumps. Not as deadly as the other diseases but capable of inflicting serious damages.

Also goodbye diptheria and whooping cough which used to kill babies. All because of vaccines.

So to those who advocate not vaccinating their kids a say phie upon then. And for those whose kids get sick or die because they were not vaccinated I say Tough Shit. You asked for It..

[Brant Gaede]

During the years 1936 to 1956 I lived in the era of Polio Hell. Summertime was the worst. We were warned by our parents to avoid crowds, not to go swimming in the public pools and stay out of movie theaters during the hot months. Not a kid I know (myself included) did not have a friend or acquaintance or family relative that did not get the disease. For some it was just a bad fever and a headache. For some it was partial paralysis. For others it was the Iron Lung and for still others it was death.

Since the Sabin and Salk vaccines were introduced and became widespread polio has virtually disappeared in the advanced industrial nations. The only place to see an Iron Lung is in a museum. Nobody in the first world gets polio anymore. Not one.

Similar reports can be made about small pox. Except for the small pox viruses kept in secret vaults by various governments, small pox has been eliminated Because of vaccines. Ditto for measles and mumps. Not as deadly as the other diseases but capable of inflicting serious damages.

Also goodbye diptheria and whooping cough which used to kill babies. All because of vaccines.

So to those who advocate not vaccinating their kids a say phie upon then. And for those whose kids get sick or die because they were not vaccinated I say Tough Shit. You asked for It..

Not a bad post until the last paragraph. Then you went with the philosophical approach.

--Brant

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

So to those who advocate not vaccinating their kids a say phie upon then. And for those whose kids get sick or die because they were not vaccinated I say Tough Shit. You asked for It..

Bob,

Have you ever noticed that the problem of people like me is not with vaccines, but with lies?

Nobody, I repeat, nobody is mentally superior because they lick the boots of their rulers and accept lies as truth in the name of science.

I say if you want to goosestep into the ovens of crony capitalism because the rulers say they will keep you safe, you asked for it when the poison gas hits the showers.

Now how does that sound?

Does it sound like I am discussing the topic or mocking you and pushing buttons? Maybe asking for a fight?

If you read posts like I normally make on this issue, like Sharyl Attkisson makes, and many, many others, you will not find any objection to vaccines per se.

None.

You will find an objection to the brain-dead parroting of superiority of know-it-alls and disgust about why the authorities are lying and deceiving so much, especially since people like me are trying to figure out how to fix their broken kids--and even more especially since it appears (more and more everyday) they got broken because of bad actors and mistakes in the vaccine industry.

The idea is not to do away with vaccines, but to clean up the vaccine industry and make it not full of crony capitalists.

Any objection to that, or do you prefer boot soles and ovens?

(How's that for nasty us-against-them superior intimidation talk? )

Michael

[jts]

During the years 1936 to 1956 I lived in the era of Polio Hell. Summertime was the worst. We were warned by our parents to avoid crowds, not to go swimming in the public pools and stay out of movie theaters during the hot months. Not a kid I know (myself included) did not have a friend or acquaintance or family relative that did not get the disease. For some it was just a bad fever and a headache. For some it was partial paralysis. For others it was the Iron Lung and for still others it was death.

Since the Sabin and Salk vaccines were introduced and became widespread polio has virtually disappeared in the advanced industrial nations. The only place to see an Iron Lung is in a museum. Nobody in the first world gets polio anymore. Not one.

Similar reports can be made about small pox. Except for the small pox viruses kept in secret vaults by various governments, small pox has been eliminated Because of vaccines. Ditto for measles and mumps. Not as deadly as the other diseases but capable of inflicting serious damages.

Also goodbye diptheria and whooping cough which used to kill babies. All because of vaccines.

So to those who advocate not vaccinating their kids a say phie upon then. And for those whose kids get sick or die because they were not vaccinated I say Tough Shit. You asked for It..

Your reasoning is:

1. There were a bunch of diseases.

2. Vaccines were given.

3. Then there were no or few diseases.

Conclusion: The vaccines got rid of the diseases.

That is a well known fallacy of logic, post hoc ergo propter hoc. A professional logician should know better than that. Perhaps you consider fallacies of logic valid when they are in your favor.

Look at the history of vaccines, including the statistics. You will be surprised. There was more going on than just vaccines.

A lot of deaths that are attributed to diseases were really due to the treatment. For example in smallpox there is a fever. What is a fever? A fever is a very powerful healing process. What did doctors do about the fever? They tried to bring it down. They tried to bring the healing process down. In smallpox there is loss of appetite; the body wants to fast. What did doctors do with the loss of appetite? They figured the patient must eat to get well, even if there is no power to digest and food is a burden to the body. No wonder the patient died.

About kids who get sick or die because they were not vaccinated:

Does that happen?

What about kids who get sick or die because they were vaccinated?

There are plenty of examples. So many that the government recently decided to hide them.

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

If you read posts like I normally make on this issue, like Sharyl Attkisson makes, and many, many others, you will not find any objection to vaccines per se.

None.

But there are those who are against vaccines.

I am not one of those, nor are the people I am talking about.

Michael

[BaalChatzaf]

During the years 1936 to 1956 I lived in the era of Polio Hell. Summertime was the worst. We were warned by our parents to avoid crowds, not to go swimming in the public pools and stay out of movie theaters during the hot months. Not a kid I know (myself included) did not have a friend or acquaintance or family relative that did not get the disease. For some it was just a bad fever and a headache. For some it was partial paralysis. For others it was the Iron Lung and for still others it was death.

Since the Sabin and Salk vaccines were introduced and became widespread polio has virtually disappeared in the advanced industrial nations. The only place to see an Iron Lung is in a museum. Nobody in the first world gets polio anymore. Not one.

Similar reports can be made about small pox. Except for the small pox viruses kept in secret vaults by various governments, small pox has been eliminated Because of vaccines. Ditto for measles and mumps. Not as deadly as the other diseases but capable of inflicting serious damages.

Also goodbye diptheria and whooping cough which used to kill babies. All because of vaccines.

So to those who advocate not vaccinating their kids a say phie upon then. And for those whose kids get sick or die because they were not vaccinated I say Tough Shit. You asked for It..

Your reasoning is:

1. There were a bunch of diseases.

2. Vaccines were given.

3. Then there were no or few diseases.

Conclusion: The vaccines got rid of the diseases.

That is a well known fallacy of logic, post hoc ergo propter hoc. A professional logician should know better than that. Perhaps you consider fallacies of logic valid when they are in your favor.

Look at the history of vaccines, including the statistics. You will be surprised. There was more going on than just vaccines.

A lot of deaths that are attributed to diseases were really due to the treatment. For example in smallpox there is a fever. What is a fever? A fever is a very powerful healing process. What did doctors do about the fever? They tried to bring it down. They tried to bring the healing process down. In smallpox there is loss of appetite; the body wants to fast. What did doctors do with the loss of appetite? They figured the patient must eat to get well, even if there is no power to digest and food is a burden to the body. No wonder the patient died.

About kids who get sick or die because they were not vaccinated:

Does that happen?

What about kids who get sick or die because they were vaccinated?

There are plenty of examples. So many that the government recently decided to hide them.

Not when it happens again and again and again in the laboratory thousands of times and the antibodies are -viewed- killing the viruses.

But you will not be convinced. All of science is post hoc ---- right? Even the light bulb. I throw the switch. The light turns on. Post hoc ergo propter hoc.

[jts]

We are not talking about antibodies. We are talking about vaccines and diseases. And it did not happen again and again. There were cases where the smallpox vaccine appeared to increase the number of smallpox deaths.

Click on this.

http://www.vaclib.org/legal/MTstate/smallpox.pdf

In 1871, England's population was 97.5% vaccinated against smallpox.

1871-1880 During this period of compulsory vaccination, the death rate from smallpox went from 28 to 46 per 100,000.

(I don't know what the big deal is with smallpox. Even if nobody ever got sick, I would expect a death rate of about 1000 per 100,000 just from old age. I wouldn't worry about some mickey mouse smallpox 'epidemic'. I would think healthful living is a good defense against a disease that almost nobody gets.)

1870-1871 In Germany a million people got smallpox and 120,000 died. 96% of these were vaccinated.

1918 - 1919 Philippines. 95% of the population vaccinated, worst smallpox epidemic ever.

Scotland 1855-1876 one of the most vaccinated countries in the world at that time, 9000 children under 5 died.

Scotland 1907-1919 only one third vaccinated, only 7 deaths under 5.

Even if vaccines contributed, that does not prove they were the only factor or even the main factor. Imagine living in a world where people are so ignorant that they think fruits and leafy veggies are nutritionally worthless and they don't have fridges to put them in and they take a bath only once a year.

In 2015, barring bad genetics or somesuch bad start in life, there is little possibility of a valid reason for anyone in a 1st world country to get a serious disease. In 2015 almost everyone has access to health knowledge (not to be confused with vaccines) and has the financial means of applying the knowledge. In other words, serious disease 2015 on will usually be a choice. A hundred years ago in 1915, probably most people could -honestly- not know better or not have the means of applying their knowlege. In 2015, probably most young people have the potential to live to a ripe old age in good health, with modern advantages of knowledge of health (not poisons) and wealth. Oldsters maybe not, they might have irrepairably screwed their health.

Paraphrasing Greg the moralist, most people have exactly the health they deserve. For example Ayn Rand deserved lung cancer. If she had lived more rationally ....

[BaalChatzaf]

We are not talking about antibodies. We are talking about vaccines and diseases. And it did not happen again and again. There were cases where the smallpox vaccine appeared to increase the number of smallpox deaths.

Click on this.

http://www.vaclib.org/legal/MTstate/smallpox.pdf

In 1871, England's population was 97.5% vaccinated against smallpox.

1871-1880 During this period of compulsory vaccination, the death rate from smallpox went from 28 to 46 per 100,000.

(I don't know what the big deal is with smallpox. Even if nobody ever got sick, I would expect a death rate of about 1000 per 100,000 just from old age. I wouldn't worry about some mickey mouse smallpox 'epidemic'. I would think healthful living is a good defense against a disease that almost nobody gets.)

1870-1871 In Germany a million people got smallpox and 120,000 died. 96% of these were vaccinated.

1918 - 1919 Philippines. 95% of the population vaccinated, worst smallpox epidemic ever.

Scotland 1855-1876 one of the most vaccinated countries in the world at that time, 9000 children under 5 died.

Scotland 1907-1919 only one third vaccinated, only 7 deaths under 5.

Even if vaccines contributed, that does not prove they were the only factor or even the main factor. Imagine living in a world where people are so ignorant that they think fruits and leafy veggies are nutritionally worthless and they don't have fridges to put them in and they take a bath only once a year.

In 2015, barring bad genetics or somesuch bad start in life, there is little possibility of a valid reason for anyone in a 1st world country to get a serious disease. In 2015 almost everyone has access to health knowledge (not to be confused with vaccines) and has the financial means of applying the knowledge. In other words, serious disease 2015 on will usually be a choice. A hundred years ago in 1915, probably most people could -honestly- not know better or not have the means of applying their knowlege. In 2015, probably most young people have the potential to live to a ripe old age in good health, with modern advantages of knowledge of health (not poisons) and wealth. Oldsters maybe not, they might have irrepairably screwed their health.

Paraphrasing Greg the moralist, most people have exactly the health they deserve. For example Ayn Rand deserved lung cancer. If she had lived more rationally ....

[william.scherk]

Since the Sabin and Salk vaccines were introduced and became widespread polio has virtually disappeared in the advanced industrial nations. ... Similar reports can be made about small pox. Except for the small pox viruses kept in secret vaults by various governments, small pox has been eliminated Because of vaccines.

Your reasoning is:

1. There were a bunch of diseases.

2. Vaccines were given.

3. Then there were no or few diseases.

Conclusion: The vaccines got rid of the diseases. [...]

Jerry, you may be misunderstanding Bob's comment, and his reasoning. For Bob, I believe, it is not in dispute that the modern polio or smallpox vaccine conferred immunity upon the vast majority of vaccinated people. Not stated, but I think implied, is that there is a mechanism of action, or a process of effect, and that these mechanisms/processes are quite well understood. Here I mean the principles and central findings of virology.

Off the top of my head. A given single virus (let's say Polio, Smallpox, Whooping Cough) is essentially an individual 'cellule' containing 'instructions' in the form of viral genetic codes. The virus has a plan, so to speak, and each viral plan involves the entire viral 'cell.'

In a nutshell, the general viral instructions are: breach cell wall of host organism, insert viral plan in host cell's genetic instructions, turn on host-cell machinery, mass-produce 'new' viral particles, burst through or bud off that host cell, destroying or preserving it, and continue the process as long as possible. The implied 'aim' of the brainless particulate thing is to reproduce. The viral particle 'hijacks' the machinery of a cell to achieve that aim.

Still off the top of my head, the human body and its defenses against viral invasion and proliferation. These comprise many interlocking bits of cellular machinery. I will simplify this systematic machinery by giving parts names: Finders, Identifiers, Binders, Alerters, Messengers, Killers, Garbage Collectors. You may know these types of things by other names or this sort: white blood cells, antigens, killer-T cells, macrophages, and so on, but I want to keep it simple. We could call Finder et al the Immune Response Army.

Let us say a smallpox virus has come, via mucus membranes, to a human cell. What is the first response?

Consider that the world is full of bacteria, plasmids, parasites, blood-sucking insects, viruses. Some float in the air, some inhabit the soil and surfaces, some live on our skin and inside our bodies. Some are 'harmful, some are benign, some are not designed to infect humans, and so on.

Smallpox virus then starts to infect a host. The Immune Response begins in this case with an Identification and an Alert.

This gets a bit tricky, but stay with me -- I am simplifying for the sake of comprehension.

The Immune system of specialized cells issues an alert the moment a 'foreign' particle begins the infection. The Finder et al gang 'record' the individual 'ID' of the invader by chemical 'markers' on its surfaces, and trigger a cascade of cellular and organismal response. The gang coordinates its activity with the aim of attaching Killers to viral particles or otherwise chemically interfering with its plans. The first Alert leads to an ID which might be precise or general: "Incoming, Foreign, Viral, Unknown till now, Binding and Flagging for the Kill."

Now, here is where we may split our story into outcomes. One outcome is that the gang in Person A does its job effectively, robustly; the gang has IDed a foreigner, bound him, killed him, and carted him and a thousand other foreigners and flushed the dead viral mass into the lymphatic drain.

That is the outcome that interests specialists in infectious disease and epidemiology. What are the key qualities of best-performing hosts? What are the reasons that the Gang wins some and loses some?

Here, Jerry, in my over-simplified rendering, the key is the Key. The mental image I want you to assemble has a key/lock+key-ring/key-cupboard/Lock&KeyMan/KeyMuseum in it. It is vast and intricate. The other mental image I want you to assemble is a table of figures, with multiple columns and multiple rows. The 'key' here is the index. The Index is of course a number or name that is unique to each row of the table. The reduction is to the concept of ID. In database design the 'key' is a unique individual identifier, a key-tag. This is immune 'memory' ...

With those two images in place, return to the moment of smallpox infection. The smallpox virus has 'keys' to the cell. Does the cell have keys to the virus? Is the cell 'naive'?

That's where an infection goes good or bad in the individual. A or B. And that is the key finding in immunology that provides the basic principle underlying vaccination/immunization/inoculation. If you have followed this so far, great. The next passage will explore the principle running through my simplistic model.

Okay, smallpox particle has an ID, and on the ID are things like Genus, Family, Mutation, Stink, Furriness, Race, Ethnicity, Politics. Has the smallpox virus ever flashed its ID to the cell and its organism before? Did a number of viral particles float on in sometime in the past, only to be killed by the gang before they got busy? Did the Killer squad eat the particles before the ID unit had a chance to examine them closely? Did the ID render out a full Species ID, or enough that the Immunity System could build an army for the 'next time'? If all yes, the whole bodily system is in a better defensive state, more or less 'immune.'

When a fully IDed virus encounters the immune system for the second time, the virus is fucked, mostly. The system recognizes its species immediately and the first Alert brings out a multiplied force that overwhelms the invader, at the speed of chemistry. The chemico-biologico-computational machinery locks, loads and fires in a massive array of cellular activity.

What might you feel during this smallpox alert while your machinery battles? Perhaps a fever, perhaps nothing.

Okay, the ID, the Machine of immunity, what's left to describe in my model? I will call it the In-Lock-ulation. During a first visit of the virus the immune intelligence service collected enough IDs to prime the machinery of death for a second intrusion. The Lock is on the virus. This is a particular immunity and it is not innate.

So, smallpox, an ugly disease. Say this is you and this is your first experience with a smallpox infection. It hasn't killed you, but it did get busy.

Now, having survived a first bout, there will be no protracted bout the second time. The invasion will be forestalled long before it gets to this point again. This clearly and simply illustrates the principle behind inoculation/vaccination/immunizaton. The hinge point is the 'priming' of the machinery, the 'imprinting' on the cellular 'memory' data tables.

Briefly, to a summary of what I believe to be true, a few notions for you to try on, Jerry.

An inoculation is an induced infection, either pricked or blown or rubbed into the host. Of all the details of its full Species ID, either all or a subset is in the inoculant. It can be a related virus. I can be a viral fragment. It can be a teeny part of a viral fragment, an antigen.

Smallpox was acute and quite contagious. It was, in the modern sense, Viral. It was a Viral Video of blinding pus blisters and death through bronchial infection.

The notion of inducing an 'pre-infection' by sticking in Partial ID viral skin/bone was a good one. The Partial ID primes the machinery to fight, but since viral hijack instruction code was boiled out, there is only priming, no disease process, no viral replication, no full-blown symptoms.

Now, I only mentioned antigen once, and did not mention antibodies. I am done with taking things off the top of my head. I think you or Bob should explain to us others what a viral antigen is and what a human antibody does. Off the top of my head, I think Bob is wrong, antibodies don't kill anything. Off the top of my head, I need to go find a picture and think about my rhetoric. Could it be more clear, convincing, better structured, more friendly, more helpful?

Off to read some less simplistic discussions of the immune response, the immune system, the mechanics of the machinery. I promise not to edit out mistakes above.

Challenge for Jerry: in your own words, simplified or not, tell us how the modern smallpox vaccine is purported to work. I have done the major road-clearing for you. If you write off the top of your head, without references, we can see your argument more clearly. I think you misunderstand the theory and practice of immunization, and are at times and on some subjects lost in a forest of preposterous claims.

If you bring your attention to the mechanics, you might be able to grasp what is the strongest part of the counterargument to your beliefs. If you understand better, we can have better arguments, and come to reasonable, rational conclusions. Disagreement can bear good fruits, given good faith and commitment to reason and logic.

I'll hang up and listen.

*****************************************

-- I couldn't resist some copy-pasta, which reveals the scope of what my model meant to illustrate. This is from Nature Reviews Biology, doi:10.1038/nrmicro2332; the caption is "Function of dendritic cells in the immune response to viruses."

Edited June 4, 2015 by william.scherk

[jts]

Tilden was there, had experience with smallpox, unlike modern doctors. On the subject of smallpox being extremely contagious:

Etiology.--Smallpox is considered one of the most virulent of contagious diseases, and it is generally believed that persons exposed are almost invariably attacked, unless protected by vaccination. This is one of the most stupendous exaggerations to be found in medical literature. My experience has been that very few people take it when exposed to it.

There is more. You can find it at

Natural Hygiene Lexicon

Wait for the data to load, a bunch of books.

On vaccination, click on Hygienic Care of Children. Or do you want me to copy and paste for you? The smallpox vaccine has a history of failure in a bunch of countries.

I'm not sufficiently interested in vaccination to go into detail about it. Putting filth into my bloodstream is not my idea of health. I try to avoid bad things as much as I can and to do good things. Putting filth into my bloodstream would be going in the opposite direction. I am not afraid of viruses and germs.

A picture of smallpox does not impress me. There are equally bad pictures of vaccination. So what? Avoid both. I think smallpox might be fun, if doctors don't interefere. Don't eat, sleep, let the fever run its course, avoid doctors. It's probably no worse than other diseases that doctors try to scare us with that are actually trivial.

Do not confuse between how bad a disease can be in its consequences and how difficult it is to reverse. For examples diabetes2 can be very serious in its consequences (eg amputation) but it does not follow that it is difficult to reverse. It seems trivial to reverse. I suspect smallpox is another example of a potentially serious disease that is easy to reverse. How else did such an ignorant pioneer doctor as Trall have a 100% success rate with smallpox?

[william.scherk]

Okay, Jerry. You invoke Tilden who 'was there' with smallpox (in which years?) and invite me to go poke around elsewhere, wait for data to load, read some books, a bunch, read Hygienic Care for Children, published in, what, 1821? ... which is entirely different from what I had hoped for. Your comments don't show good faith. I asked you to explain something in your own words, so that we can know you are at least basically informed -- enough to have a good faith discussion.

The first of your specific claims: "The smallpox vaccine has a history of failure in a bunch of countries."

We can assess failure by present-day numbers. We can judge its failure by the number of new cases since eradication. Without looking up a reference, that number is effectively zero. If you could understand the principle of vaccination, you could understand how vaccination can contribute to eradication.

Look at it this way. Tilden and Trall died long before the modern age of eradication (off the top of my head, around the late seventies of the last century). Neither were here in the post-polio, post-smallpox age. Their outlandish claims for cures aside, their writings show that they did not fully understand the principle of vaccination/inoculation/immunization. This is not a fertile field for understanding the world we live in today; knowledge has advanced since the time of your touchstone doctors. Moreover, and that which you skip past, modern-day knowledge of smallpox includes that of the living who were around in its final days outside the laboratory. Their experience obviously trumps the dead men's, on a 'he was there!' basis.

To the weird note that smallpox might be fun, and that the picture of an infection did not trouble you, that suggests to me that you would happily welcome the experience of pustules and complications (blindness, scarring, death). That suggests to me that you are insane in some way. That you suggest you and your juicer can 'reverse' your smallpox infection confirms the insanity.

Now, finally, I know. On this subject you are full-tilt kook boogie bamboozled, and there is no talking to you.

Whew. I can get back to staying out of engagements at the fringe of topic vaccination. You are arguing in 1793. I am arguing in 2015. Even with a time-machine, you are stuck.

For those who are interested in the fabulous Trall of the 100% (1860s?) smallpox success rate, the vast internet is full of Trall. Your first finding will be a site called World Veg Fest dot org. He was a 'pioneer' of some zany claims and ideas that persist today like zombified relicts. The undead.

Do I expect to see The Undead touted as authorities on an Objectivish-angled site? I do not. I do not, but it persists. Can an application of reason eradicate viral memes of stupendous, preposterous nonsense? No, apparently, it cannot.

Jerry, thank you for an opportunity. May you and your pustules have a fun week. The rest of us are mostly immune.

Edited June 5, 2015 by william.scherk

[Brant Gaede]

Where has all the smallpox gone?

Long time passing,

Where has all the smallpox gone?

A long time ago

Where has all the smallpox gone

Gone to next to nothing all but gone to nothing.

Where has all the polio gone?

Pakistan

[jts]

Consider these 2 statements:

1. Smallpox was eradicated. (Let's assume this is true. Some people think it still exists under a different name.)

2. Smallpox was eradicated by vaccination.

Does #2 follow from #1?

No.

-------------------------------------------------

How it works vs does it work.

How it works is not the first question. Does it work is first. If it does not work, I'm not interested in how it's supposed to work.

There are no anti-vaccinationists in Japan. Every child is vaccinated before it is six months old, revaccinated when it enters school at six years and again re- vaccinated at fourteen years of age when going to the middle school, and the men are re-vaccinated before entering the army, while a further re-vaccination is enforced whenever an outbreak of smallpox occurs."

******

Notice the last part of this statement. If vaccination prevents smallpox, how do "outbreaks of smallpox" occur in such a thoroughly vaccinated country? There can be but one answer--namely; Vaccination does not protect.

--------------------------------------------------

Even if it does work in some sense, you must consider whether it is a healing or a suppression. You can suppress a cold and later get something worse. Maybe vaccines lead to something else some years later, like cancer.

---------------------------------------------------

Smallpox is/is not very contagious. Modern doctors have books, not real life experience with smallpox. Tilden worked with smallpox.

----------------------------------------------------

Why are we talking about smallpox? Nobody gets it. I doubt anyone here is concerned that they might get smallpox. If there is zero or next to zero chance of getting smallpox, why do we need the vaccine against it? The filth inserted into the bloodstream.

-----------------------------------------------------

I don't understand the rules of evidence. Apparently evidence is invalid if it is carried on a website you don't like. Apparently this is true even if the website is merely a carrier, not the source of the evidence.

-------------------------------------------------------

Back to how it works vs does it work, applied to something more modern and more relevant:

Theory: Tumors can't autolyze because they are caused by a defect in DNA. (A medical doctor actually said this.)

Fact: Tumors sometimes do autolyze.

We have here a conflict between a theory and a fact. I say fact trumps theory. William probably would say theory trumps fact, the story that the tumor autolyzed is false because it is contrary to medical theory.

There are many stories much more impressive than mine. Mine is semi-impressive to me only because it happened to me. I had a small trivial tumor disappear during a fast. It's amazing that people make excuses to not believe it. One excuse could be I didn't publish the story in a peer reviewed medical journal so I can't know it's true.

I say facts trump theories, authorities, popular beliefs, and Medical Deities. Any theory or authority or popular belief or MD that says tumors can't autolyze is wrong.

----------------------------------------------------------

[Brant Gaede]

People are still being vaccinated against smallpox?

2 from 1? Who cares? There is no argument that if one thing is true about vaccine "A" then it's true about vaccine "X", although it could suggest a line of inquiry.

.

When Europeans made contact with Native Americans and South Sea Islanders, the influenza they gave them decimated them by the millions. Their bodies didn't have time to naturally adapt. In such areas of infectious diseases you have the strongest case. Your dogmatic fanaticism, however, weakens you across the board. There's value for others evaluating your rock hard ideas for their consistency, but it's take what makes sense for evaluation and possible use and leave the rest.

--Brant

[ThatGuy]

On 6/3/2015 at 11:16 AM, Mikee said:

"The manual identifies a new mental illness called “oppositional defiant disorder” or ODD. Defined as an “ongoing pattern of disobedient, hostile and defiant behavior,” symptoms include questioning authority, negativity, defiance, argumentativeness, and being easily annoyed."

2nd amendment? Not for crazy people. Off to the gulag you disobedient disputatious defiant doubters and deniers. (especially Jerry).

Bump

[ThatGuy]

On 6/3/2015 at 12:30 AM, Michael Stuart Kelly said:

The following article dated May 31, 2015 is by Sharyl Attkisson. It is not from some anti-vaccine website.

Government Wipes Recent Vaccine Injury Data from Website

From the article:

Dontcha luv crony capitalism?

Nothing like big government and big pharma covering each others backs.

Thank goodness for checks and balances, meaning, in this case, a judiciary.

Objectivity on this issue creeps along slowly, but it is finally moving.

Still, I wonder when the scientismists are going to start claiming Sharyl Attkisson herself wants to kill babies with preventable disease...

Michael

bump