Peikoff on date rape


9thdoctor

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ND would be more up on it, he started the thread, and good on him.

Aw shucks. Actually there's only one person coming out in favor, and here's my answer to him:

Ninth Doctor/brian, notice that you completely changed the context by supposing examples where the woman was physically harmed. Physical abuse of that kind is illegal regardless of whether or not rape occurred.

I say non-consensual sex = physical harm. Does there need to be vaginal tearing, and does she need to leave blood stains on the guy’s shirt, as happened in the Kobe Bryant case? Hell no. I can twist your arm behind your back, causing you immediate pain, but without causing physical harm, in the sense that you won’t have an injury, and will be fine once I let go.

Or do you think non-consensual sex doesn’t hurt? Tell you what, I have it on good authority that with sufficient lubrication in place, non-consensual anal sex doesn’t result in injury. Imagine a scenario where you find yourself bent over a chair, you’re saying no, but your rapist is a highly regarded Objectivist authority (and judo master), and he quotes chapter and verse at you from Peikoff podcasts as he gets busy. Maybe he threw some code words at you earlier; it’s a break during OCON, and you were drinking together at the bar, talking meta-ethics, and you unknowingly communicated “yes, I’m game for a buggering”, when you thought you were affirming the primacy of existence. Remember, once you’ve gone up to his room, whatever you say from that point on is too late, taking Peikoff literally.

As to this moral vs. legal issue, there’s always going to be a he says she says aspect to rape allegations, and I don’t see how Peikoff is shedding any light on the matter. What I do see is him giving moral license to men to force themselves on women, and I think it’s horrifying.

http://forum.objecti...ndpost&p=288375

Why did you have to go and bring up Judo?

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Why did you have to go and bring up Judo?

How else is he going to hold the guy down? Tae Kwon Do?

Touche.

Besides, a reference to the more obvious Brazilian JuJitsu and/or its abbrevation BJJ, well, that could have caused some serious thread drift...

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Brant wrote:

The fun doesn't start until Diana opines.

end quote

You know, that would be interesting. Dare she? Can she? Oh, what is a toadie to do? Diana blows and there is a wind in the willows.

Snatched from Wikipedia:

Mole had a sudden case of spring fever, gave up on his house-cleaning, and wandered into the fields and meadows. He finds himself by a river (he has been such a stay-at-home that he has never seen it before) and meets a pretty Water Rat, named Dominique who invites Mole into her boat, something else he has never seen before. "Believe me, my young friend," Dominique says dreamily, "there is nothing —absolutely nothing —half so much worth doing as simply messing about in boats." So Mole had his way with her. Oh, she squealed, but Mole knew what she was asking for. Different species, indeed!

Peter

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The issue of consent and "safe words" has been an issue in the D/s community for the twelve (12) years that I have been aware of it. This was in Salon on the 28th of January. Never thought it would be applicable but the Pope of Mumbles brings up the issue:

Love and Sex

Saturday, Jan 28, 2012 8:00 PM Eastern Standard Time

When safe words are ignored

Women in the bondage and kink scene are speaking out about sexual assaults in the community, and calling for change

By Tracy Clark-Flory

iStockphoto_Juanmonino-460x307.jpg

(Credit: iStockphoto/Juanmonino)

Topics:Love and Sex, BDSM, Editor's Picks

Maggie Mayhem is dressed like a kinky dictator. Standing onstage at San Francisco’s Center for Sex and Culture, her olive-green military cap and knee-high-heeled boots belie the vulnerable subject at hand.

“The first time I was ever raped,” she starts, her throat tightening around her words, “it was actually on a date with somebody from my local S/M community.”

The 27-year-old sex educator and fetish model has never before publicly shared the story of her sexual assault, but the purpose of this evening’s event, a “consent culture” fundraiser, is so that she can start telling it, again and again. Her mission, along with fellow activist and sex worker Kitty Stryker, is to raise awareness about what they say is widespread abuse within the BDSM community and a tendency for players to either turn a blind eye or actively cover it up. They’ve developed a workshop meant to combat the problem and want to take it on the road.

http://www.salon.com/2012/01/29/real_abuse_in_bdsm/?source=newsletter

In my opinion, there is nothing worse than a dominant who violates the trust principle. Unfortunately, there are predators in the vanilla world and in the D/s world.

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The issue of consent and "safe words" has been an issue in the D/s community for the twelve (12) years that I have been aware of it. This was in Salon on the 28th of January. Never thought it would be applicable but the Pope of Mumbles brings up the issue:

Love and Sex

Saturday, Jan 28, 2012 8:00 PM Eastern Standard Time

When safe words are ignored

Women in the bondage and kink scene are speaking out about sexual assaults in the community, and calling for change

By Tracy Clark-Flory

iStockphoto_Juanmonino-460x307.jpg

(Credit: iStockphoto/Juanmonino)

Topics:Love and Sex, BDSM, Editor's Picks

Maggie Mayhem is dressed like a kinky dictator. Standing onstage at San Francisco’s Center for Sex and Culture, her olive-green military cap and knee-high-heeled boots belie the vulnerable subject at hand.

“The first time I was ever raped,” she starts, her throat tightening around her words, “it was actually on a date with somebody from my local S/M community.”

The 27-year-old sex educator and fetish model has never before publicly shared the story of her sexual assault, but the purpose of this evening’s event, a “consent culture” fundraiser, is so that she can start telling it, again and again. Her mission, along with fellow activist and sex worker Kitty Stryker, is to raise awareness about what they say is widespread abuse within the BDSM community and a tendency for players to either turn a blind eye or actively cover it up. They’ve developed a workshop meant to combat the problem and want to take it on the road.

http://www.salon.com...urce=newsletter

In my opinion, there is nothing worse than a dominant who violates the trust principle. Unfortunately, there are predators in the vanilla world and in the D/s world.

Hey, HEY!! If you are the guy in pink leather who's been askin around for me, please get me out of here! I dont know where it is I am but you gotta find me. They only give me goalie pads to wear. Also I have 34 years, I am pretty MAN not pretty boy, my mother is worried sick and I missed All Star weekend already! Move it!

en desespoir

Vincent L.

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The fun doesn't start until Diana opines.

--Brant

hear, hear

You can get a preview here:

http://rationallyselfish.idea.informer.com/proj/?ia=42068

That's her husband writing, it's sensible so far. I don't see how she'll be able to pass on this one.

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The whole dynamic of this makes no sense to me. First of all, I am in control of myself at all times.

If a woman did not want to make love with me, it is her loss. The way this is being presented, the male is a completely irrationally driven mechanism.

That paradigm does not work for me.

Now stopping would carry physical frustration with it and any sentient man knows this and knows how to deal with it.

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The whole dynamic of this makes no sense to me. First of all, I am in control of myself at all times.

If a woman did not want to make love with me, it is her loss. The way this is being presented, the male is a completely irrationally driven mechanism.

That paradigm does not work for me.

Now stopping would carry physical frustration with it and any sentient man knows this and knows how to deal with it.

Right on point. On reflection I am not surprised that it is mostly men who are discussing this, because it is in fact about the man - the usual perpetrator of rape, whether the victim is female or male. Peikoff seems to have the archaic view that men once aroused lose their reason and "can't stop themselves" (a line used by many hoping to get lucky in the dim and distant sixties and seventies) Maybe he used it himself.

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The whole dynamic of this makes no sense to me. First of all, I am in control of myself at all times.

If a woman did not want to make love with me, it is her loss. The way this is being presented, the male is a completely irrationally driven mechanism.

That paradigm does not work for me.

Now stopping would carry physical frustration with it and any sentient man knows this and knows how to deal with it.

Let me know if you want me to send you a good story FF on this very subject within BDSM. She has recently had it published by a publisher but I still have it downloaded when it was on FF.

I haven't bothered with listening or reading P on this and won't. His example of Kobe is interesting. I am quite sure Kobe was set up. Just as children now know they can set up an adult on sexual charges. (There's a terrifying documentary on this where a man's life is ruined before they grow up and confess they all made it up. It was a game to them.) Kobe's case was about money and IMO so was Michael Jackson's. Having done a lot of real estate and dealing with tenants, I know how one can get set up. An analyst I knew was set up providing a place for a vietnamese brother and sister to live in. I know he didn't rape the sister.

Baudrillard has much to say about this date-rape thing. The jan/feb Atlantic Monthly 2009 has two articles on sex. One on Karen xxxx sex list at Duke, known for the other gang bang. The second was on porno and also analyzed coed porno and sex. It is an ambivalent problem as coeds now don't just gt drunk the way we used to get drunk, they get drunk to the point of blotto, pass out dead drunk. This is what turns guys on. The predators go to a frat party and deliberately look for the drunkest girl there. They rape her. In the bathroom, in one of the bedrooms, etc. The girls get stinking drunk to lower their PC Feminist dogma indoctrination so they can get laid, get a bf, attract a predator and not feel responsible. Not accept the consequences. In the past women had a gentleman's code. gentlemen did not do this, and his frat brothers would not tolerate it either. There are no such codes now and the authors of both these articles, very good writers, really don't have a clue.

If you want to have more understanding of what's going on with women then read http://www.fanfiction.net to see what women really want as women are writing this stuff. It also explains why the Twilight irruption has happened that the PC Feminists hate so much. No one can have their cake and eat it too. No pun intended selene.

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The whole dynamic of this makes no sense to me. First of all, I am in control of myself at all times.

If a woman did not want to make love with me, it is her loss. The way this is being presented, the male is a completely irrationally driven mechanism.

That paradigm does not work for me.

Now stopping would carry physical frustration with it and any sentient man knows this and knows how to deal with it.

Right on point. On reflection I am not surprised that it is mostly men who are discussing this, because it is in fact about the man - the usual perpetrator of rape, whether the victim is female or male. Peikoff seems to have the archaic view that men once aroused lose their reason and "can't stop themselves" (a line used by many hoping to get lucky in the dim and distant sixties and seventies) Maybe he used it himself.

I hate to tell you but that's exactly what the two women writers in the Atlantic Monthly zine of jan/feb 2009 come down to. Read Karen's power point fuck list. Peikoff is correct when you are dealing with the kind of athlete that Duke coeds were dealing with.

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The whole dynamic of this makes no sense to me. First of all, I am in control of myself at all times.

If a woman did not want to make love with me, it is her loss. The way this is being presented, the male is a completely irrationally driven mechanism.

That paradigm does not work for me.

Now stopping would carry physical frustration with it and any sentient man knows this and knows how to deal with it.

Right on point. On reflection I am not surprised that it is mostly men who are discussing this, because it is in fact about the man - the usual perpetrator of rape, whether the victim is female or male. Peikoff seems to have the archaic view that men once aroused lose their reason and "can't stop themselves" (a line used by many hoping to get lucky in the dim and distant sixties and seventies) Maybe he used it himself.

I hate to tell you but that's exactly what the two women writers in the Atlantic Monthly zine of jan/feb 2009 come down to. Read Karen's power point fuck list. Peikoff is correct when you are dealing with the kind of athlete that Duke coeds were dealing with.

Please stop telling me to read things. I know retired schoolteachers get like that, butI never asked for your literary recommendations.

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Ron Paul tells Piers Morgan only ‘honest rape’ merits abortion

By David Ferguson

Saturday, February 4, 2012 18:02 EST

RonPaul-615x345.png

In an interview from Las Vegas on Piers Morgan Tonight, Morgan asked whether as a man with daughters and granddaughters, Rep. Paul (R-TX) thinks that abortion is warranted if a woman has been impregnated by a rapist.

“If it’s an honest rape,” Paul replied, “that individual should go immediately to the emergency room, I would give them a shot of estrogen.” He claimed, however, that if a woman is “seven months pregnant” and says that she was raped, “It’s a little bit of a different story.”

http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2012/02/04/ron-paul-tells-piers-morgan-only-honest-rape-merits-abortion/

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Ron Paul tells Piers Morgan only ‘honest rape’ merits abortion

Ugh. But at least, like Reagan or the Bushes, if he were elected he wouldn't be able to outlaw it. Meanwhile, he is right that rape victims ought to have the situation taken care of pronto.

Over on OO one of the worst of the fundy's has shown up, and now one of the moderators is threatening to lock the thread. Jonathan posted something to the effect that that thread is a case study in what's wrong with the O'ist movement, and I was about to do a post disagreeing with him. Can't do it anymore.

http://forum.objecti...ndpost&p=288413

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I don't know how you guys can stand going over there. After I read Rational [Re]Pomegranate I wonder why I didn't realize years ago the intellectual, psychological and cultural necessity of Objectivists ruining Objectivism. If they had never put a name on it the nut cases couldn't have repaired to it. People interested in Rand's ideas would have had to actually study and think about ideas instead of simply self-labeling themselves. She thought in 1964, after Goldwater's defeat, it was much too soon for politics. Wrong! It was never too soon for freedom.

--Brant

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I don't know how you guys can stand going over there. After I read Rational [Re]Pomegranate I wonder why I didn't realize years ago the intellectual, psychological and cultural necessity of Objectivists ruining Objectivism.

But he’s not representative of the site. Look how the regulars are taking him apart.

Here’s my latest from over yonder:

I think there ought to be a special Dunning-Kruger award. I seriously have no idea how I would narrow down the nominations though.

Easy, look for people who defend Peikoff no matter what he says.

I'm still thinking about this, but I think as of now that a woman sending signals of consent to a man and then withdrawing them once the man begins to initiate is just as fraudulant as a man sending signals that he loves her when he doesn't to get her consent.

Fraudulent? Who cares if her behavior has been fraudulent? She could be the worst dick-tease in history, rape is still rape.

Now, I’m going to try giving Peikoff’s statement the most charitable reading I can manage. Earlier I said his moral guidance to women is “don’t go up to his room is you’re not up for sex”, and his moral guidance to men is “she’s here, now plug your ears and bone her”. If you can grant that his statement was only meant as advice to women, then it’s really not so bad, a woman ought to be aware that she could be raped if she puts herself in that position. If you have a daughter, it's a fact that you want her to be aware of. The trouble is the corollary, the necessary implication for how men are expected to behave. Take the way he puts it, “you cannot do that”, “and it’s too late at that point”, I find it inescapable that this is moral license for the male party to say: “you cannot do that”, and “it’s too late at this point”, meaning, for him to commit rape, and for the female to do what? She sure as hell isn’t allowed to change her mind, is she? Grin and bear it?

Do we need Peikoff to come right out and say: “men, this means it’s a-ok to hold the bitch down and jam it in there”? This is like expecting Obama to come right out and say “I’m here to enslave producers at the point of a gun” or for the crazed Islamophobes to say “bomb the madrassas, and be sure to do it while they’re occupied”. Such candor is rare indeed.

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To be fair about that site, I've never seriously gone there and evaluated it, primarily because I cannot stand moderation or active moderators. I can tolerate a thread lock down or Michael tossing stuff into the Garbage Pile.

--Brant

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To be fair about that site, I've never seriously gone there and evaluated it, primarily because I cannot stand moderation or active moderators. I can tolerate a thread lock down or Michael tossing stuff into the Garbage Pile.

--Brant

What you said,

Reading OO and Solo and Noodles can be entertaining though, The solemnity of the newbies is touching and frequently hilarious. There is a thread on OO that roughly translates as "I am a boring workaholic, why can't my friends see that they should be just like me?"

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To be fair about that site, I've never seriously gone there and evaluated it, primarily because I cannot stand moderation or active moderators. I can tolerate a thread lock down or Michael tossing stuff into the Garbage Pile.

--Brant

What you said,

Reading OO and Solo and Noodles can be entertaining though, The solemnity of the newbies is touching and frequently hilarious. There is a thread on OO that roughly translates as "I am a boring workaholic, why can't my friends see that they should be just like me?"

Further to which, I just looked at Solo where Perigo informs that he last looked at OL "several years ago" and that it contains "the lowest life forms which exist." I was not here several years ago, but someone should inform him that the life forms have evolved into superbeings.

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To be fair about that site, I've never seriously gone there and evaluated it, primarily because I cannot stand moderation or active moderators. I can tolerate a thread lock down or Michael tossing stuff into the Garbage Pile.

--Brant

What you said,

Reading OO and Solo and Noodles can be entertaining though, The solemnity of the newbies is touching and frequently hilarious. There is a thread on OO that roughly translates as "I am a boring workaholic, why can't my friends see that they should be just like me?"

Where did you get this?

--Brant

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