Please have a look at this: The Magic of Stereographic Projection


BaalChatzaf

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Only God possesses the infinite intelligence to create the exquisitely sophisticated order of laws which govern the physical world. Mathematicians create nothing... however, like explorers, they do discover beautiful relationships as the results of the design of those well ordered laws which already exist.

Greg

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Only God possesses the infinite intelligence to create the exquisitely sophisticated order of laws which govern the physical world. Mathematicians create nothing... however, like explorers, they do discover beautiful relationships as the results of the design of those well ordered laws which already exist.

Greg

Does God know if the set of twin primes is infinite or not, or is He just not saying?

Ba'al Chatzaf

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Only God possesses the infinite intelligence to create the exquisitely sophisticated order of laws which govern the physical world. Mathematicians create nothing... however, like explorers, they do discover beautiful relationships as the results of the design of those well ordered laws which already exist.

Greg

Does God know if the set of twin primes is infinite or not, or is He just not saying?

Ba'al Chatzaf

God created all of the laws mathematicians can only discover...

...and also all of the mysteries they haven't yet discovered.

There's Something smarter than everyone... and that includes me. :wink:

Greg

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If the world we know could only have come into existence through the action of a super-intelligent, super-powerful being, then logic dictates that the super-intelligent, super-powerful being must himself be the creation of an ultra-intelligent, ultra-powerful being.

Thus we should be worshipping not Jesus's father but his grandfather.

And if granddad is awesome, just think about great-granddad!

"Our Great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-grandfather, which art in heaven, hallowed be Thy name."

infinite_regress.jpg

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If the world we know could only have come into existence through the action of a super-intelligent, super-powerful being, then logic dictates that the super-intelligent, super-powerful being must himself be the creation of an ultra-intelligent, ultra-powerful being.

Thus we should be worshipping not Jesus's father but his grandfather.

And if granddad is awesome, just think about great-granddad!

"Our Great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-grandfather, which art in heaven, hallowed be Thy name."

infinite_regress.jpg

Nice graphic, where is it from?

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If the world we know could only have come into existence through the action of a super-intelligent, super-powerful being, then logic dictates that the super-intelligent, super-powerful being must himself be the creation of an ultra-intelligent, ultra-powerful being.

Thus we should be worshipping not Jesus's father but his grandfather.

And if granddad is awesome, just think about great-granddad!

"Our Great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-grandfather, which art in heaven, hallowed be Thy name."

infinite_regress.jpg

It is Turtles All the Way Down and Deities All the Way Up.

Ba'al Chatzaf

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If the world we know could only have come into existence through the action of a super-intelligent, super-powerful being, then logic dictates that the super-intelligent, super-powerful being must himself be the creation of an ultra-intelligent, ultra-powerful being.

Thus we should be worshipping not Jesus's father but his grandfather.

And if granddad is awesome, just think about great-granddad!

"Our Great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-grandfather, which art in heaven, hallowed be Thy name."

infinite_regress.jpg

It is Turtles All the Way Down and Deities All the Way Up.

Ba'al Chatzaf

Each set is beyond us so we pretend to know the unknowable. It seems to be essentially a problem of infinity. As far as we know, so far, infinity is only in our heads, but when we look up it seems to be in the skies. When we look down, in the ground. Looking up is for worship. Looking down is for science.

--Brant

belief in a Supreme Being is a supreme lack of modesty; no one lacks more modesty (and applied intelligence) than a suicide bomber thinking his reward for mass murder will be fucking 72 virgins (forever?) in paradise (the West substitutes Viagara)--jihad as an aphrodisiac and suicide as its sublimation

Edited by Brant Gaede
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If the world we know could only have come into existence through the action of a super-intelligent, super-powerful being, then logic dictates that the super-intelligent, super-powerful being must himself be the creation of an ultra-intelligent, ultra-powerful being.

A Creator by definition is Uncreated.

That idea is larger than your mind.

Greg

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The definition of a "creator" is "A person or thing that brings something into existence." The act of creating does not exclude one from the category of things created.

Yes it does.

A Creator, by definition, has to transcend everything He creates.

Give it up, Frank. It's beyond you. Just go back to the comfort of the fantasy that there is nothing greater than your own intellect and you'll be just fine.

Greg

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The definition of a "creator" is "A person or thing that brings something into existence." The act of creating does not exclude one from the category of things created.

Yes it does.

A Creator, by definition, has to transcend everything He creates.

Give it up, Frank. It's beyond you. Just go back to the comfort of the fantasy that there is nothing greater than your own intellect and you'll be just fine.

Greg

Suppose it is only the physical cosmos that has existed in some form or another ever since when. Then there is no need to suppose a sentient Creator ( a likely candidate for being God). In short the eternal existence of matter and energy removes the necessity for a God or gods. For all we know, the physical cosmos may be the Real God.

Ba'al Chatzaf

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The definition of a "creator" is "A person or thing that brings something into existence." The act of creating does not exclude one from the category of things created.

Yes it does.

A Creator, by definition, has to transcend everything He creates.

Give it up, Frank. It's beyond you. Just go back to the comfort of the fantasy that there is nothing greater than your own intellect and you'll be just fine.

Greg

What dictionary are you reading from? Where is there a definition of "creator" that requires him to "transcend everything He creates"?

And even if it were true that the creator of the world as we know it has transcended that world, it would not follow that such a creator could not be the product of a still greater being.

If something as marvelous and complex as a human has to be the product of a super-intelligence, then that super-intelligence could not have come into being purely by accident. It would, by the same laws of reasoning, have to be the result of thoughtful creation by an ultra-intelligence.

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The definition of a "creator" is "A person or thing that brings something into existence." The act of creating does not exclude one from the category of things created.

Yes it does.

A Creator, by definition, has to transcend everything He creates.

Give it up, Frank. It's beyond you. Just go back to the comfort of the fantasy that there is nothing greater than your own intellect and you'll be just fine.

Greg

If you can't rationally explain something, it's beyond the rational mind.

--Brant

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If the world we know could only have come into existence through the action of a super-intelligent, super-powerful being, then logic dictates that the super-intelligent, super-powerful being must himself be the creation of an ultra-intelligent, ultra-powerful being.

A Creator by definition is Uncreated.

That idea is larger than your mind.

Greg

Insult.

--Brant

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If you can't rationally explain something, it's beyond the rational mind.

Not ultimately, Brant... just locally. :wink:

The concept of a Prime Mover, or an Uncreated Creator is perfectly rational. But I have no problem with Frank's denial, as his own free choice has nothing to do with me or my life. There is no such thing as coersion.

Greg

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That idea is larger than your mind.

Greg

Questions:

1. Do you believe an idea is more than an epiphenomenon of the workings of your very physical brain?

2. Is your middle name Plato?

Ba'al Chataf

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That idea is larger than your mind.

Greg

Questions:

1. Do you believe an idea is more than an epiphenomenon of the workings of your very physical brain?

From sitting still long enough to observe thoughts I see that my mind is as much a radio as it is a computer. Besides the ability to think about thoughts, it also has the ability to receive thoughts. So I see thoughts that I did not originate. And with a vantage point of observation which is outside my mind, I'm perfectly free to choose not to act on them if they aren't morally right.

I am not my thoughts.

I'm the guy who looks at them and chooses which ones to act upon and which to let go by unresponded.

So if you believe that the totality of your being is solely your intellect and nothing else... you're going to act on every thought that comes into your head, because you believe yourself to be the supreme god creator of every thought and that there is nothing greater than your intellect.

I consider that to be the working definition of a sucker! :laugh:

2. Is your middle name Plato?

I don't know. I've never read Plato...

My conclusions are not arrived at from reading books,

but from the objective reality of my own life experience.

Greg

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I don't know. I've never read Plato...

My conclusions are not arrived at from reading books,

but from the objective reality of my own life experience.

Greg

How does an idea exist outside of the brain of a sentient biological entity?

Is there any objective evidence that this is possible?

Ba'al Chatzaf

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Greg

Is there a Faraday Cage of the mind? Is there a way to still the mind enough to not allow the thoughts that are not original to it to happen? can it every be turned off?

I found that nothing gets resolved by trying use my will to suppress the flow of thoughts. That's a dead end. Things seem to work better when I watch thoughts with the realization that they are not me. This makes it much easier not to emote to them as if I had originated them. Deprived of the emotional energy they need to sustain their existence, they eventually dissipate leaving the mind even clearer.

Here's an example of the difference between being immersed in thought and observing thought:

If I stumbled into you and angrily called you an idiot. You would likely react with anger. But if I walked up to you and confided to you in advance that I'm going to stumble into you and act like I'm angry and will call you an idiot. You wouldn't get angry because you knew in advance that it was just an act.

That's how thought is. When you actually see that you aren't your thoughts, you can then observe them pretending in an attempt to get you to emotionally react to them, and to act on them, as if they were you... when in reality they aren't you.

So I treat my mind like a radio.

I listen to the thoughts and calmly and deliberately choose which ones are right to act on, and which ones it's better to just let pass by unresponded.

Greg

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