Beck Stands With Israel - So Do I


Recommended Posts

Brant,

I've looked through a few books for that story. I couldn't find it so far. I looked online and couldn't either, so I'll have to dig for it the hard way.

When I've come across it in the past, I never bothered to make notes, so it's buried in at least one book (if not more) I've read a while back.

We'll just have to wait until I find it. I can't say when. I do reread stuff. Now my antenna's set to make note of that story when I find it, so I know I eventually will.

Michael

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Adam wrote:

Quote

Out of curiosity, would you, if it was necessary to carry out that defense, reinstitute a draft in the United States?

End quote

“If” is for children.

Are there any circumstances under which I (oh, President Peter Trump) would reinstitute a draft? No - wait! No, forget that. Wait! The circumstance where I would reinstate a draft are so extreme that I would have no need to reinstitute a draft. There would be sufficient volunteers.

What is, “If we were invaded,” Alex? I mean, Adam.

Drafted into the US Army I 1967,

and I did not like it,

Peter Taylor

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Peter:

Thanks for the answer.

Adam

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I stand corrected. My contention that the Jewish people of Israel have an average IQ 117 was the closest I could estimate without research.

Sociological categories place individuals into a conceptual catch – all, that the participants or outside observers, may not appreciate. Whatever this diverse group’s IQ, it is higher than average. Jews are 2 or 3 percent of America’s population if I remember correctly and they account for one-third of our Nobel laureates. One Evolutionary Psychologist claimed that Hitler did more to lower the *global IQ* than any other monster that ever existed.

Would Ayn Rand defend Israel? Of course.

Brant wrote:

Well, that's an interesting piece of reasoning, Peter, which I'll just let stand.

End quote

Interesting reasoning? I had not thought of it that way but my “Yes” answer was culled from many years of admiring all that Ayn said, even those things of which I was initially dubious.

I would be happy to abandon her points of view that were bigoted or do not correspond to the facts that we know today. Sometime in the future, the Ayn Rand Lexicon will become The Objectivist Lexicon or simply The Lexicon with Rand’s name in the subtitle.

That will occur when there are *sufficient* addendums and additions to her philosophy to embolden the new intellectuals to think for themselves, and forge new ground. Objectivism must always be openly contextual to be justified. At the point this is achieved “her philosophy” will become *Provable and Factual Objectivism*.

I must say, that under the auspices of Peikoff and Binswanger, they *seem to be* bringing in points of view to The *online* Ayn Rand Lexicon that were expressed at different times of Ayn’s life, and which are more contextually true Objectivism. I have a copy of one of the first published Lexicons. Someday I may cross check it against the latest version found online.

Peter Taylor

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 2 weeks later...
Tomorrow's show will be more about the Israel setup. This one today laid more groundwork than anything else.

That was posted before the announcement that Beck was making a new agreement with Fox and leaving his five o'clock show. The Friday show devoted to the set-up of Israel was then canceled due to the possibility of a government shutdown, with Fox deciding to keep a running commentary throughout the day. That Friday show was broadcast yesterday.

It was worth the wait.

<iframe title="YouTube video player" width="640" height="390" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/Q8_lisWqjpk?rel=0" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Glenn had as guests former Israeli Ambassador to the United Nations, Dore Gold, Rabbi Joseph Potasnik and Pastor John Hagee.

Each one had a strong message that stood out.

According to Gold, Israel does not want USA involvement in protecting it militarily. Gold said Israel was intent on being self-reliant on that score. It does want diplomatic and moral support from the USA.

Another point that Potasnik mentioned was that there is too much emphasis on victimization and not enough on Jewish pride presented to the younger generation of Jews. He mentioned that Israel was the first country offering support for the recent earthquake and tsunami in Japan, and there are many such efforts, but nobody really knows about that side of Israel. (Note from me: especially from the mainstream media.)

Hagee gave one of the most important points of all. There are going to be a whole bunch of support Israel demonstrations throughout America that are being organized by his Christian organization pool. About 40 per month. They will NONVIOLENT and preach NONVIOLENCE.

I'm not a Christian, but I can easily go along with that.

btw - Glenn's couple-of-minutes cartoon of the history of Israel (recent history) is a hoot. It is presented during the show.

Michael

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 1 month later...

There is so much going on with Israel that I want to post, but I just don't have time right now. So here are a couple of quick comments.

Glenn Beck thinks Israel is being set up for a biiiiiiiiiiiiiiig fall, and he constantly insinuates that Obama is part of it or complicit with it (albeit not the author). He thinks conflicting interests (hard left, Islamists, Soros brand of the left, etc.) are uniting to take Israel down, then they will worry about fighting each over what's left.

So he is staging another rally--this time in Jerusalem--August 2011. The details on dates, venues, travel groups, etc., are not all ready, but you can get information here:

Coming this summer: ‘Restoring Courage’ in Israel

The left is going nuts with this. It's almost comical to watch them spew and sputter.

Another point is that President Obama just took on Israel in a major way, demanding that Israel accept the 1967 borders. Netenyahu basically told Obama to take it back. See here:

Israel Expects Obama to Take Back ‘1967 Lines’ Demand

I don't care whether Obama takes it back or not. Now he is damned if he does and damned if he doesn't. The only thing that concerns me is whether this is going to result in war.

More later.

Michael

Link to comment
Share on other sites

[

Michael, you say you don't care whether Obama takes back his statements about Israel or not. If, as you have said, you stand with Israel, I think you don't fully grasp what Obama is demanding-- or you would care very much indeed.

Obama is flying in the face of the commitments of American administrations for more than 60 years, and is demanding that Israel sit down with enemies who deny its right to exist, in order to negotiate the precise manner of its suicide.

Please, read the Pajamas comment: http://pajamasmedia.com/tatler/2011/05/19/wow-netanyahu-expects-obama-tNetanyany's statement

And read the Israel Nationsl News comment: http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/144338

You say that the only thing that concerns you is whether this is going to lead to war. It may do so -- if Israel refuses to allow Jews to undergo a new Holocaust. Who, then, will be to blame for the bloodshed?

Barbara

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Barbara,

The reason I say this is that I think that Obama is committing political suicide. Since he no longer has a full Democratic Congress, his teeth are somewhat pulled in making major changes. So in terms of actual policy, I don't think he is going to be very effective over the next year-and a-half..

My only worry is that he will embolden some of Israel's enemies to do some very stupid things.

I seriously doubt the Israeli government will allow a new holocaust to happen. I would hate to see nukes deployed to prevent it, though. That would be a mess. Obama's bungling of everything as he tries to be the world's O Great Wise One just might trigger it. That's what I mean by war--one which I don't foresee Israel losing.

Michael

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Let us now remember and note for history the self hating and self loathing Jewish Senators and Congressmen who were silent today in the face of the despicable treachery of American commitment by this person in the White House:

For Shame...

Senator

Boxer

Feinstein

Blumenthal

Lieberman Joe "the Quisling" Lieberman speaks out against the current occupant of the White House

Schumer

Franken

Levin?

Congressman

Ackerman

Wiener

Waxman

Wasserman-Schultz

Schackowski

Frank?

Levin?

Israel

Nadler

Engel

Lowey

Cohen

Remember these creatures well

Adam

Edited by Selene
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Obama is flying in the face of the commitments of American administrations for more than 60 years, and is demanding that Israel sit down with enemies who deny its right to exist, in order to negotiate the precise manner of its suicide.

Charles Krauthammer has an interesting take on the speech. I would like to hear Barbara's reaction to what he has to say.

Barbara, I am not sure how much you read of the Israeli press. Ha'aretz has a suite of reaction (including an unusual article by Gideon Levy), as does the Jerusalem Post (with a couple of outliers, one by Khaled Abu Toameh). The predictable reaction from Hamas? "Obama speech total failure."

Some OL readers may not be aware of the leaks of Palestinian negotiation briefs that erupted in Israel/PA lands in January. A Ha'aretz report gives a quick snapshot of the leaks and identifies the leaker. Those papers offer a surprising glimpse into the PA/Kadima negotiations held in Annapolis in 2008 -- required reading to understand just what happened between Israeli negotiators and their counterparts in the years 1999-2010. Backgrounder and overview here (Wikipedia).

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Let us now remember and note for history the self hating and self loathing Jewish Senators and Congressmen who were silent today in the face of the despicable treachery of American commitment by this person in the White House:

For Shame...

Senator

Boxer

Feinstein

Blumenthal

Lieberman Joe "the Quisling" Lieberman speaks out against the current occupant of the White House

Schumer

Franken

Levin?

Congressman

Ackerman

Wiener

Waxman

Wasserman-Schultz

Schackowski

Frank?

Levin?

Israel

Nadler

Engel

Lowey

Cohen

Remember these creatures well

Adam

Supposedly Congressman Wiener spoke out against the current occupant of the White House's speech today...must have heard from some contributors!

  • Rep. Allen West (R-FL): "Today's endorsement by President Barack Obama of the creation of a Hamas-led Palestinian state based on the pre-1967 borders, signals the most egregious foreign policy decision his administration has made to date, and could be the beginning of the end as we know it for the Jewish state. From the moment the modern day state of Israel declared statehood in 1948, to the end of the 1967 Six Day War, Jews were forbidden access to their holiest site, the Western Wall in Jerusalem's Old City, controlled by Jordan's Arab army. The pre-1967 borders endorsed by President Obama would deny millions of the world's Jews access to their holiest site and force Israel to return the strategically important Golan Heights to Syria, a known state-sponsor of terrorism. Resorting to the pre-1967 borders would mean a full withdrawal by the Israelis from the West Bank and the Jewish neighborhoods of East Jerusalem. Make no mistake, there has always been a Nation of Israel and Jerusalem has been and must always be recognized as its rightful capital."

Let see what what was said on the Democratic Party side:

sand-300x222.jpg

  • Senator Chuck Schumer (D-NY)usually a big supporter of the Jewish State, ignored Obama's unilateral declaration of the return to the "1967 borders." With his head cowardly in the sand he said,"I am glad the president has rejected any unilateral action by the UN, which has always been biased against Israel, but there can be no negotiations until Hamas, recognized as a terrorist group by the United States, renounces terror and recognizes the reality of a two-state solution,"

  • Congressman Steve Israel (D-NY) reaction to the President's throwing of the Jewish State was , a reaction echoed by Congressman Gary Ackerman who said and Majority Leader Steny Hoyer (D-MD) who added . That's right they said nothing. Harry read proclaimed that he had not yet heard the speech.

The National Democratic Jewish Coalition showed the country why their party is place in front of their religion in their name as they had the audacity to praise the speech saying that the President "demonstrated his unwavering support of Israel"

Also weighing in on the President's speech was full-time progressive activist, and part time director of the ADL, Abe Foxman who like Chuck Shumer ignored the most distasteful part of the speech.

We support the President's vision of a negotiated Israeli-Palestinian settlement with strong security provisions for Israel, and a non-militarized Palestinian state. We appreciate his direct rejection of a unilateral declaration of a Palestinian state and his understanding that the Hamas-Fatah agreement poses major problems for Israel.

This should serve as a red flag to anyone who supports the state of Israel. Remember what happened today when the Jewish State most needed the support of our public figures. The Republican party was quick to point out how Obama's speech put Israel in dangers. The Democrats abandoned the Jewish State to the whims of a President who publicly threw Israel under the bus.

As Edmond Burke said almost three-hundred years ago "The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing." In a time of great need for Israel, the Democratic Party did nothing. For that they should be ashamed of themselves.

Supporters of Israel should remember that when they enter the voting booth in 2012.

here is where this section was taken from

Edited by Selene
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Here's a thought I just had.

May 15th was supposed to be some kind of world catching on "Days of Rage" fire, especially in the Middle East. Even more than the demonstrations have been. The flotilla was scheduled again. Some dude was stirring up the rabble to target big banks here in the USA with mass home mortgage defaults. And on and on. All centering around May 15th.

We know Obama sat on the bin Laden kill for the longest time as he "agonized" over how best to do it. Funny how he decided to go forth with the kill a couple of weeks before the May 15th world ablaze fireworks pffffft.

I believe all this was supposed to help bully Israel into some kind of submission in addition to the other aims of destroying capitalism, etc.

Well... it looks like May 15 fizzled. Gaddafi ran out the clock, so nobody knows what the hell to do with him anymore. The dude in Syria is openly slaughtering protesters and it looks like that's not going to improve anytime soon. Egypt, the great democratic "Days of Rage" victory, is getting closer and closer to something that smells an awful lot like the Taliban (not the actual Taliban, but a ruling class that would be just as repressive). And on and on.

The flotilla flopped. Beck exposed the bank thing over a month before it was supposed to happen, so that tanked.

The only real thing that is catching fire is the end of times Rapture, and that is pure entertainment (besides not having anything to do with anything).

I think Obama made his 1967 borders for Israel statement now, instead of later, simply because he is running out of stuff to make it stick for the September UN vote on Palestine. If that border idea is going to have any chance at all, it has to be now.

But I don't think anything is going to come of this, although I always wonder what Obama is hiding. (Notice that he is essentially doing the "empire" thing of always with different jargon and a few different faces.) And I think that UN vote is going to be a world-class joke that is going to embarrass a lot of people and make Middle East tensions with Israel even worse than they are.

In other words, I don't think Obama orchestrated all this, but I do think he was privy to a lot of it. And I think he screwed up big time in everything except bin Laden. But, as he is learning, killing one major terrorist is not a remedy for general administrative ineptitude.

Michael

Link to comment
Share on other sites

We know Obama sat on the bin Laden kill for the longest time as he "agonized" over how best to do it.

I don't believe that President Obama 'sat on the bin Laden kill for the longest time.' The US government certainly sat on news getting out to the Pakistanis, but a fair look at the timeline does not show Obama sitting on the 'go signal' any longer than necessary to get it right. In my opinion, of course.

Funny how he decided to go forth with the kill a couple of weeks before the May 15th world ablaze fireworks pffffft.

The May 15th pffft is as you note, a date on the calendar. The date certainly had significance for those calling for a third intifada, and it certainly had significance on Israel's external borders. I think the actual demos and border crossings were a surprise to both the Israelis and the marchers as well as to the organizers.

The 'world ablaze' almost captures the kooky rhetoric from some of those in support: I don't know if you follow twitter/Facebook or not in keeping up with Mideast news, but the May 15th marches were supposed to usher in a new Arab uprising in support of the Palestinians. Millions would pour across Israel's border and take back the Arab Lands.

That plan definitely went pfffft, but the effects of those demonstrations and marches have reverberated. I mean people died. Fifteen people were shot to death at the borders (with Lebanon and Syria). May 15th was the day (on the Gregorian calendar) that Israel declared itself a nation in 1948 . . . a nation with uncertain borders. It is also the day many Arabs in the region mark the occasion. They call it al-Nakba ("the catastrophe"). Note that no one was killed and no one stormed the borders with Jordan and Egypt. The Egyptian authorities prevented incursions, the Jordanians as well, though the calls for a third uprising began in Egypt.

I believe all this was supposed to help bully Israel into some kind of submission in addition to the other aims of destroying capitalism, etc.

I don't know what 'all this' is supposed to cover, but I agree that the Nabka marchers would in their dreams bully Israel into submission in a real sense. If 'all this' means Obama's restating of a long-standing US policy toward peace between Palestinians and Israel, and also includes him 'sitting on' a kill . . . I don't agree. If 'all this' means some murky caliphatesorosgooglefolkleftistgraceboggs connect-the-dots whoopup, then we also disagree.

Gaddafi ran out the clock, so nobody knows what the hell to do with him anymore.

No. You don't know what the hell to do with him. There is no race clock kept by 'them' or NATO or the US or the Libyan rebels. Gaddafi will be arrested, killed or commit suicide between now and the end of the summer. I expect it to happen sooner.

What is to be done with him, of course, is to degrade his defences, bomb the fuck out of all his command and control, and hit any active munitions that can be targetted, to insert special forces spies, to coordinate NATO attacks with the situation on the ground. Qatar is training the rebels (and Egypt and Qatar are facilitating 'secret' arms), Italy, France and the UK are supplying logistical and planning support to the Free Libyan Forces (as they call themselves), and the UK has equipped the forces with modern communications technologies and helped the INC regroup its volunteer and defected forces under unified command. The ICC has prepared the arrest warrants, the INC in Benghazi is exchanging consuls with the UK and France and the US, Jabril has been to Washington to coordinate with the Obama administration's military leaders.

I don't know which news sources you follow to keep track of events in Libya, Michael, but I recommend the site Libyafeb17.com. It is updated daily and is credible and poignant, and sometimes extremely disturbing. Probably the most significant developments this last week are those in and around Misurata, along with today's escalation by NATO of bombardments on Gaddafi's naval forces. As you probably know, Misurata harbour was mined (since cleared), subject to cluster bomb and touch mine drops in civilian areas, and subject to several attempted incursions by Gaddafi vessels. Misurata is no longer subject to sustained rocket attacks on civilians, and the Gaddafi forces have been routed from its approaches. A dire humanitarian situation remains, of course, with the UN calling for a 3 day truce to rush in supplies.

In the west, lesser but significant action; although reports are often unverified, it seems that the edges of Tripoli are experiencing a return of opposition activities. The vast labyrinth of Gaddafi bunkers, passages, tunnels and shelters have been pounded every night this week by NATO. His ability to command his forces is nearing its effective end.

There is so much more going on, as in any escalating military action; even little events can help make sense of the tides -- for example, Gaddafi's daughter and wife are reported to have fled to Tunisia (denied by Gaddafi's stooge Ibrahim, but he denies everything, including the incontestably true and obvious). I don't believe this little event, but if it turns out to be true . . .

The clock has by no means run out, in my view.

The dude in Syria is openly slaughtering protesters and it looks like that's not going to improve anytime soon.

I keep a close watch on events in Syria. Bashar al Assad and his clan command a Stalinesque wonderland much akin to the Iraqi Ba'ath regime under Hussein. I have no idea exactly how the next six months will play out in Syria, but you will have noted that Israel prefers the dictatorship to any unknown in that country. It is the most dangerous of times in Syria. Change is coming, whether under al-Assad's watch or otherwise. Even the most demented Syria Assad supporters know this. The danger comes from the possible realignment of Syria's relationships with Israel's enemies. As you no doubt know Iran and Syria support and supply both Hamas and Hizbollah. Syria has now lost the confidence of Turkey. Lebanon is still waiting for its new Hizbollah-supported government to form -- since January 13th. Syria's proxy wars against Israel are unlikely to be extinquished, but a new regime in Syria will have no time for major adventures.

Egypt, the great democratic "Days of Rage" victory, is getting closer and closer to something that smells an awful lot like the Taliban (not the actual Taliban, but a ruling class that would be just as repressive).

Not to put too fine a point on it, this is BS.

I don't think you can tell the difference between Amr Moussa (Egypt's probable next president) and Issam El-Erian, let alone explain the Islamic political jostling going on for the parliamentary elections in September, not to mention the day to day signs of doom and joy and in between . . . you are welcome to your opinion that Egypt's revolution is a flop, but absent some kind of warrant for that opinion, it seems uninformed and diffuse to me.

Have you had a look at an Egyptian news source even once since Mubarak's resignation? I wish you would. There is no sweet pollyanna wonderland of democracy coming along with sunshine and lollipops, that's for sure, but neither is there a brutal muslim dictatorship slavering in the wings.

And on and on.

Sure. On to Tunisia. How is that doing, Michael? How are things going in Oman, Yemen, Bahrain, Algeria, Morocco? I expect you will tell us it's all a flop and/or a plot, and that a Taliban smell wafts across the entire region . . .

The flotilla flopped.

What flotilla? You mean the one reported in today's Zaman (one of Turkey's news leaders)?

Another provocative challenge of Israel's blockade of Gaza is coming on the anniversary of the first, whether we like it or not. Turkey is going to press its hand. What will Israel do? What would you have them do?

I think Obama made his 1967 borders for Israel statement now, instead of later, simply because he is running out of stuff to make it stick for the September UN vote on Palestine.

Here's the thing about the UN vote -- it cannot be vetoed. The ugliest situation for the US and for Israel is a 187 to 2 vote.

In any case, Michael, Israel is not Netanyahu. If you take a glance at the Israeli media, you can see that there is a range of opinion. Some Israelis (like Tzipi Livni) reject Netanyahu, and consider him an obstacle to peace and reconciliation. Now, perhaps these powerful and influential Israelis should be placed on Adam's list of self-hating (congressional) Jews, but why should I or you or Adam or any non-Israeli/non-Jew take a position of "My Israel Right Or Wrong"?

Rand said, "The Arabs are one of the least developed cultures. They are typically nomads. Their culture is primitive, and they resent Israel because it's the sole beachhead of modern science and civilization on their continent. When you have civilized men fighting savages, you support the civilized men, no matter who they are."

I found that appalling and ignorant, and verging on the unintelligent and incurious -- I got the feeling that Rand knew all she needed to know about Israel and the Palestinians and that was that, the same way she figured out American Indians. Savages. Savages. Savages.

If that border idea is going to have any chance at all, it has to be now.

I wish someone, anyone, anyone with a confident opinion about the 'that border idea' would bring forward the quote from the policy speech. I wish that it could be understood that this is not a change in US policy. Although not stated as plainly as Obama has stated it, this was Bush's policy and has been US policy since before Oslo.

But I don't think anything is going to come of this, although I always wonder what Obama is hiding. (Notice that he is essentially doing the "empire" thing of always with different jargon and a few different faces.)

This murky '"empire" thing' reference leaves me scratching my head. I sometimes have no idea what actual events you are stringing together in your hasty hash. Obama hides a lot of things, I am sure. If you mean that Obama continues the 'empire' policies of Bush with regard to freedom, democracy and American values, I agree. We both remember Condoleeza Rice announcing the policy in Cairo.

Obama is not an innovator, but a wonk, and the massive ship of state does not turn on a dime. American policy is not boldly set by a single man or woman in a secret conflab with shadowy forces.

Work to defeat Obama, Michael. He is vulnerable. Nothing is guaranteed in 2012. Do your best to defeat him and replace him with a fresh Republican. But please inform yourself before you rant.

And I think that UN vote is going to be a world-class joke that is going to embarrass a lot of people and make Middle East tensions with Israel even worse than they are.

Again, I suggest you look at broad Israeli opinion, read Obama's policy speech again (if you haven't read it already) and try to understand that you might just have a few assumptions that are actually incorrect. Your arguments would be so much stronger, and your goal of defeating Obama would be that much closer.

I don't think Obama orchestrated all this, but I do think he was privy to a lot of it.

Well, I expect he reads the news and consults his massive intelligence staff intensively, so he is certainly privy to more than you and I. Which is as it should be, don't you think?

Anyhow, I am sure there will be discussion here following Netanyahu's visit to the White House, to Aipac and to Congress. Before you or I issue a fresh rant, please take a gander at the Israeli press. See what Israelis have to say on all of several sides of analysis.

If you only have time for a quick glance, please read Yoel Marcus's piece in yesterday's Ha'aretz, and if you have a chance, have a close look at Ari Shavit's piece today: in it he lays out his expectations for Netanyahu's address to Congress. Ari Shavit is no lover of Obama, and is as hardline as they come with regard to Israeli security, yet he recommends Netanyahu break new ground in his speech to the US.

-- just in case you want a measure of Shavit's regard for Obama, here is a snippet from his article on the US 'betrayal' of Mubarak, published one week after Mubarak was pushed out by the military:

Obama's betrayal of Hosni Mubarak is not just the betrayal of a moderate Egyptian president who remained loyal to the United States, promoted stability and encouraged moderation. Obama's betrayal of Mubarak symbolizes the betrayal of every strategic ally in the Third World. Throughout Asia, Africa and South America, leaders are now looking at what is going on between Washington and Cairo.

Everyone grasps the message: America's word is worthless; an alliance with America is unreliable; American has lost it. A result of this understanding will be a turn toward China, Russia and regional powers such as Iran, Turkey and Brazil.

Edited by william.scherk
Link to comment
Share on other sites

William,

I read about half of what you wrote and you are in contention for the sake of contention mode.

I would have to correct an enormous amount of misunderstandings to address it intelligently. Here's just an easy example. When I said Gaddafi ran out the clock, I was referring to the two month window Obama had before seeking Congressional approval for more war. (He's currently in a "I don't need you," "Yes you do," fight with Congress.)

Here's another. Obama knew where bin Laden was with a high degree of certainty since November of last year. I have to look it up to source it, but the source definitely exists.

There are many such cases. I wouldn't mind going through and correcting everything so that we can then start in on our differing opinions, but your post is long and my time is short. (Today is Walk for Autism day.)

I suggest we take smaller bites. I only wrote my overview for lack of time to begin with, just to have something on record.

Michael

Link to comment
Share on other sites

This reminds me a lot of a portion of a speech by Shakespeare in Merchant of Venice. The message is slightly different, but the call to see what is in front of you and stop the bigoted hatred is the same. As is the eloquence.

Hath not a Jew eyes? hath not a Jew hands, organs, dimensions, senses, affections, passions? fed with the same food, hurt with the same weapons, subject to the same diseases, healed by the same means, warmed and cooled by the same winter and summer, as a Christian is? If you prick us, do we not bleed? if you tickle us, do we not laugh? if you poison us, do we not die?

Michael

And here is that snippet completed:

Shylock:

I am a Jew. Hath not a Jew eyes? Hath not a Jew hands,

organs, dimensions, senses, affections, passions; fed with the same

food, hurt with the same weapons, subject to the same diseases,

heal'd by the same means, warm'd and cool'd by the same winter

and summer, as a Christian is? If you prick us, do we not bleed? If

you tickle us, do we not laugh? If you poison us, do we not die?

And if you wrong us, do we not revenge? If we are like you in the

rest, we will resemble you in that.

Obama is about to learn a basic lesson: Don't fuck with the Jews. Wait until 2012. You will see.

Ba'al Chatzaf

Link to comment
Share on other sites

And here is that snippet completed:

Shylock:

I am a Jew. Hath not a Jew eyes? Hath not a Jew hands,

organs, dimensions, senses, affections, passions; fed with the same

food, hurt with the same weapons, subject to the same diseases,

heal'd by the same means, warm'd and cool'd by the same winter

and summer, as a Christian is? If you prick us, do we not bleed? If

you tickle us, do we not laugh? If you poison us, do we not die?

And if you wrong us, do we not revenge? If we are like you in the

rest, we will resemble you in that.

Obama is about to learn a basic lesson: Don't fuck with the Jews. Wait until 2012. You will see.

I like that OL features at least one secular Jew in you, Bob, and that you have the wisdom of many long years on earth. You were probably around on the day of Independence, and you were probably attentive to the numerous wars and skirmishes and terror attacks over the years. It is a sobering history.

I like what Brant wrote elsewhere about the knock-on effects of war and the knock-on effects of peace. He raised the first world war, and its effects in the lands of the former Ottoman Empire. I think that in some ways that war never ended in the troubled Arab world. I mean end in the way the first world war ended in 1945 and I mean peace as in a formal peace that led to an interlocking web of treaties between sovereign states, NATO and the EU (and with the fall of the Iron Curtain further treaties of accession).

The partition of Palestine under the British Mandate did not come about and the only treaties between the state of Israel and its neighbours are with Egypt and Jordan. I do not think Egypt and Israel will ever go to war again.

The goal of Israel and the US is on paper exactly the same thing -- a Palestinian State and an Israeli state with a formal peace between them.

It is funny/peculiar to read commentary from Middle Eastern sources, from the free presses that exist and have just this year come into being.

There can be no enduring peace between Israel and a Palestine until there is peace with a democratic Syria and a democratic Lebanon, in my view. If we (the Western We) stand with Israel, we stand for the universal values we share amongst us, and that are reflected in Shakespeare's famous passage.

I am a Palestinian. Hath not a Palestinian eyes? Hath not a Palestinian hands, organs, dimensions, senses, affections, passions; fed with the same food, hurt with the same weapons, subject to the same diseases, heal'd by the same means, warm'd and cool'd by the same winter and summer, as a Jew is? If you prick us, do we not bleed? If you tickle us, do we not laugh? If you poison us, do we not die? And if you wrong us, do we not revenge? If we are like you in the rest, we will resemble you in that.

Edited by william.scherk
Link to comment
Share on other sites

This reminds me a lot of a portion of a speech by Shakespeare in Merchant of Venice. The message is slightly different, but the call to see what is in front of you and stop the bigoted hatred is the same. As is the eloquence.

Hath not a Jew eyes? hath not a Jew hands, organs, dimensions, senses, affections, passions? fed with the same food, hurt with the same weapons, subject to the same diseases, healed by the same means, warmed and cooled by the same winter and summer, as a Christian is? If you prick us, do we not bleed? if you tickle us, do we not laugh? if you poison us, do we not die?

Michael

And here is that snippet completed:

Shylock:

I am a Jew. Hath not a Jew eyes? Hath not a Jew hands,

organs, dimensions, senses, affections, passions; fed with the same

food, hurt with the same weapons, subject to the same diseases,

heal'd by the same means, warm'd and cool'd by the same winter

and summer, as a Christian is? If you prick us, do we not bleed? If

you tickle us, do we not laugh? If you poison us, do we not die?

And if you wrong us, do we not revenge? If we are like you in the

rest, we will resemble you in that.

Obama is about to learn a basic lesson: Don't fuck with the Jews. Wait until 2012. You will see.

Ba'al Chatzaf

Really Bob?

So their percentage will drop from almost 80% to what 76%? American Jews are liberals first and most have kinda swept their religious/Israeli affiliations under their left wing rugs.

Adam

see Podhoretz's analysis

Link to comment
Share on other sites

William,

I would have to correct an enormous amount of misunderstandings to address it intelligently. Here's just an easy example. When I said Gaddafi ran out the clock, I was referring to the two month window Obama had before seeking Congressional approval for more war. (He's currently in a "I don't need you," "Yes you do," fight with Congress.)

Michael

Michael and William:

Apparently, the current occupant of the White House has decided that the War Powers Act does not apply to HIM, here.

Apparently, “Since April 4,” the president the current occupant wrote, “U.S. participation has consisted of: (1) non-kinetic support to the NATO-led operation, including intelligence, logistical support, and search and rescue assistance; (2) aircraft that have assisted in the suppression and destruction of air defenses in support of the no-fly zone; and (3) since April 23, precision strikes by unmanned aerial vehicles against a limited set of clearly defined targets in support of the NATO-led coalition's efforts.”

In other words, I am your Dictator so I do what I want!

Adam

so when you are blown to pieces by a non kinetic support action, are you still able to kinetically function?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

So their percentage will drop from almost 80% to what 76%? American Jews are liberals first and most have kinda swept their religious/Israeli affiliations under their left wing rugs.

Adam

see Podhoretz's analysis

The Jewish Virtual Library keeps some rough stats on the Jewish presidential vote since 1920.

Which Podhoretz analysis do you mean -- this one: What Netanyahu did today?

If so, here is an excerpt:

Has there ever been a moment like the one Benjamin Netanyahu had today following his meeting with President Obama? I can’t think of one. When has a president ever made a joint appearance with the leader of an ally in the wake of a controversial policy proposal, only to have that ally push back against him publicly? Netanyahu’s powerful—and surprisingly graceful, considering the context—remarks can be read in full here. The only moment that even remotely compares wasn’t a diplomatic one; it was when Elie Wiesel, during the dustup over Ronald Reagan’s visit to the Bitburg cemetary in West Germany in 1985, was given a Medal of Freedom and with beautiful understatement said to the president, “This place is not your place.” We got a glimpse of the Bibi that so electrified the world in the late 1980s and early 1990s when he was serving as Israel’s chief spokesman in the English language in this stunning passage:

We’ve been around for almost 4,000 years. We have experienced struggle and suffering like no other people. We’ve gone through expulsions and pogroms and massacres and the murder of millions.

But I can say that even at the dearth of — even at the nadir of the valley of death, we never lost hope and we never lost our dream of re-establishing a sovereign state in our ancient homeland, the land of Israel. And now it falls on my shoulders as the prime minister of Israel at a time of extraordinary instability and uncertainty in the Middle East to work with you to fashion a peace that will ensure Israel’s security and will not jeopardize its survival.

I take this responsibility with pride but with great humility, because, as I told you in our conversation, we don’t have a lot of margin for error and because, Mr. President, history will not give the Jewish people another chance.

Netanyahu's full remarks here.

Edited by william.scherk
Link to comment
Share on other sites

William:

I meant this one...

http://www.c-spanvideo.org/program/AreJ

However, I thought Netanyahu was incredibly eloquent in that section yesterday. Nothing like a South Philly educated Israeli to have clear courage in his statement!

I wonder if the current occupant of the White House was offended by the "my people have suffered more than any other people in history" reference? I wonder if that could be at the core of some of this tension.

The comparative "historical" repression of blacks versus Jews...I wonder if it could be that primal.

Adam

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I enjoyed your post 40, William, though I've not yet the time to closely and thoroughly read it. It made me think of an old English 3-decker ship of the line unleashing a broadside onto a contesting vessel just before grappling and boarding. But did you really expect Michael to so easily surrender as not to fight and fire back?

--Brant

Kablooey! Kablooey! Kablooey!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now