Do you want holes in your intestine?


jts

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Health is not math and is not physics. In math and perhaps also in highly mathematical subjects such as physics you can prove things absolutely. Outside of those fields there is hardly any such thing as conclusive proof. Instead of proof they have theories. The way I see it even if the probability of something being bad for me is only 50%, that is a good enough reason for me to avoid it if I can. I have a different standard of evidence.

When you are driving and about to make a left turn (across the traffic) if there is any doubt whether it is safe, it is not safe. You don't need proof that a vehicle is coming; you need proof that no vehicle is coming.

Ayn Rand and others waited for years, maybe decades. for the government to tell them that smoking is bad before they quit smoking. To this day maybe it is not proved to the satisfaction of mathematical types who want it proved like a theorem in geometry. I don't wait for government to tell me anything. I don't trust government anyway. I figure it's a reasonable guess that breathing tar and nicotine and other crap into my lungs is probably bad for my health.

Here is what I see as cause for suspicion.

From:

http://responsiblete...th-risks/1notes

65 Health Risks of GM Foods

Section 1: Evidence of reactions in animals and humans

1.2 Rats fed GM tomatoes got bleeding stomachs, several died

1. Rats were fed the GM FlavrSavr tomato for 28 days.

2. Seven of 20 rats developed stomach lesions (bleeding stomachs); another 7 of 40 died within two weeks and were replaced in the study.

3. The tomato was approved despite unresolved safety questions by FDA scientists.

1.4 Mice fed GM Bt potatoes had intestinal damage

1. Mice were fed either GM potatoes engineered to produce the Bt-toxin or natural potatoes spiked with Bt-toxin.

2. Both diets created abnormal and excessive cell growth in the lower part of their small intestine (ileum).

3. Similar damage to the human small intestine might result in incontinence or flu-like symptoms, and may be precancerous.

4. This study overturns the assumptions that Bt-toxin is destroyed during digestion and is not biologically active in mammals.

1.6 Sheep died after grazing in Bt cotton fields

1. After the cotton harvest in parts of India, sheep herds grazed continuously on Bt cotton plants.

2. Reports from four villages revealed that about 25% of the sheep died within a week.

3. Post mortem studies suggest a toxic reaction.

1.8 Farmers report pigs and cows became sterile from GM corn

1. More than 20 farmers in North America report that pigs fed GM corn varieties had low conception rates, false pregnancies or gave birth to bags of water.

2. Both male and female pigs became sterile.

3. Some farmers also report sterility among cows.

1.10 Mice fed Roundup Ready soy had liver cell problems

1. The liver cells of mice fed Roundup Ready soybeans showed significant changes.

2. Irregularly shaped nuclei and nucleoli, an increased number of nuclear pores and other changes, all suggest higher metabolism and altered patterns of gene expression.

3. The changes may be in response to a toxin.

4. Most of the effects disappeared when GM soy was removed from the diet.

1.12 Mice fed Roundup Ready soy had unexplained changes in testicular cells

1. The structure and gene expression pattern of testicle cells of mice fed Roundup Ready soybeans changed significantly.

2. The cause for the changes is unknown, but the testicles are sensitive indicators of toxins.

3. Some of the changes might possibly influence adult fertility as well as the health of the offspring.

4. Mouse embryos from GM-fed mothers did show a temporary decrease in gene expression.

1.14 Most offspring of rats fed Roundup Ready soy died within three weeks

1. Female rats were fed Roundup Ready soy starting before conception and continuing through pregnancy and weaning.

2. Of the offspring, 55.6% died within three weeks compared to 9% from non-GM soy controls.

3. Some pups from GM-fed mothers were significantly smaller and both mothers and pups were more aggressive.

4. In a separate study, after a lab began feeding rats a commercial diet containing GM soy, offspring mortality reached 55.3%.

5. When offspring from GM-fed rats were mated together, they were unable to conceive.

1.16 Rats fed Roundup Ready canola had heavier livers

1. The livers of rats fed GM canola were 12-16% heavier than those fed non-GM varieties.

2. The liver is a chemical factory and primary detoxifier for the body.

3. Heavier livers may indicate liver disease or inflammation.

4. If this were caused by oil-soluble toxins, they may be present in canola oil.

1.18 GM peas generated an allergic-type inflammatory response in mice

1. In advanced tests not normally part of GM crop evaluations, protein produced by GM peas generated a dangerous immune response in mice.

2. That "same" protein, when produced naturally in beans, had no effect.

3. The GM peas produced a subtle, hard-to-detect difference in the way sugar molecules attached to the protein, which likely caused the problem.

4. The response in mice suggested that the GM peas could provoke inflammatory or allergic reactions in humans; commercialization of the peas was therefore cancelled.

5. This type of subtle but dangerous change in the GM protein would rarely, if ever, be detected in the safety assessments typically used to approve GM crops.

1.20 A GM food supplement killed about 100 people and caused 5,000-10,000 to fall sick

1. One brand of the supplement L-tryptophan created a deadly US epidemic in the 1980s

2. The company genetically engineered bacteria to produce the supplement more economically.

3. Their product contained many contaminants, five or six of which were suspected as the cause of the disease.

4. Discovering the epidemic required multiple coincidences, suggesting that adverse reactions to GM foods may be hard to identify.

--- end of quote ---

That is page one. Click on the link and see some more pages.

http://responsiblete...th-risks/1notes

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"Do you want holes in your intestine?"

Well, yeah. At least two.

One going in and the other going out.

But I was born with those.

:smile:

Michael

Bt corn has a bacteria gene in it that produces a poison that kills insects that eat it. It kills the insects by rupturing their gut. When larger animals such as mice, rats, cattle eat it, it causes the intestinal wall to get thin, sometimes causing little holes. Not good. You do not want additional holes in your gut.

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Jerry Story invites OLers to watch a video of Arpad Pusztai. He also gives us an unattributed list of claims about GMO foods.

His epistemological standards are unclear. Does he believe all are 'proven,' or does he believe a back-of-the-envelope calculation of odds? Has he approached each of the 65 listed 'findings' one by one, tested its veracity, examined the source of the contention?

We do not know. Brant asked for a reference for Pusztai, but this was a bit too much for our Jerry. The analogy to Rand introduces the unsaid lung cancer/tobacco smoke connection. Apparently she quit smoking on or around the time of her diagnosis. Who wouldn't? What that has to do with 65 shiny baubles of alarm in re GMO we do not know.

Further weird-way-to-reason is that Jerry, for all his question mark topics, does not really ask any questions. He beggars the questions that matter. Not 'Do GMO Potatoes put holes in guts?' but 'Do you want holes in your guts?' Not "what does the research say?" but "since this one crackpot on a website says it's true, who am I to question it?" Weird. Just taking some spoken claim without question and moving on. Is this the best we can do with our reason? I think not.

However he got to his opinions, by vacuum hose or careful junk-picking, Jerry confidently gives us the goods:

Bt corn has a bacteria gene in it that produces a poison that kills insects that eat it. It kills the insects by rupturing their gut. When larger animals such as mice, rats, cattle eat it, it causes the intestinal wall to get thin, sometimes causing little holes. Not good. You do not want additional holes in your gut.

Hmmm. Were the animals in Pusztai's research fed Bt corn or lectin-dosed potatoes? Um, Jerry? You know that Bt (Bacillus thuringiensis) is completely different from the compound Pusztai tested (snowdrop lectin)?**

Who is this Arpad Pusztai, anyway? Do we need to ask any Objectivish questions of him, or do we just apply a rule-of-thumb? -- if he says he found GM potatoes will put holes in your intestines, are there any criteria we have as objective inquirers to test his claim, examine his premises and the work he puts forward? Do we have an alternative to fully accepting Hole In Yer Guts as Jerry does? Questions, questions ...

Jerry is no help. He has some oddball criteria that cause him to sometimes scrutinize material and sometimes not. In this case he appears to have no intellectual filters to sort the claimed and the true. Instead of giving us a chance to engage with him in his truth search, he gives up, goes for a data dump. He doesn't (he does!) calculate probabilities. He doesn't (does he?) investigate primary sources or the literature. Peer review seems an alien concept, as do any of the presumptions of rational inquiry -- least of all investigation. It is as if he thinks he cannot know (the degree of and specific nature of) the danger in GMO, so we should err on the side of paranoia, believe the worst, and take the conclusions of some random website instead of doing our own thinking.

I think of Jerry as someone in a mental stockade, with few tools to comprehend the world outside the walls.

So, Jerry and the GMO potato, item one ... is there a story here, or should we just swallow the contention whole?

The Gut Attacks GMOs as Foreign Invaders

Carol thinks the Original Topic header is the worst topic tile ever. It may be, but more pertinent is Brant's input: whatever Pusztai is peddling, somewhere is to be found the research he claims to have made, research that can be (and was) examined and critiqued.

Here is what I see as cause for suspicion.

65 Health Risks of GM Foods

________________

** Sadly, it seems that Jerry answered Brant's challenge to deliver the literature supporting Pusztai's video by misunderstanding and mixing up 'lines of evidence' coming from two entirely different papers. This is what happens when you do not understand the question on the table. Mixing up Pusztai's research is likely not the only basic error made. This is what happens when you do not know what Bt toxin is, or how it is tested ...

Fares NH, and El Sayed AK (1998). Fine structural changes in the ileum of mice fed on delta endotoxin-treated potatoes and transgenic potatoes.

Ewen SW and Pusztai A (1999). Effect of diets containing genetically modified potatoes expressing Galanthus nivalis lectin on rat small intestine. Lancet 354 :1353-1354.

In 1998 S.W. Ewen and Arpad Pusztai claimed to have conducted experiments revealing variations in the thickness of intestinal linings of rats when they were fed diets containing either GM or non-GM potatoes. The work was published the following year in the British medical journal The Lancet.

http://en.wikipedia..../Pusztai_affair

Edited by william.scherk
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How many potatoes did they feed those rodents anyway? Were they Irish, or PEIslanders?

The details are in the actual paper by Ewen and Puzstai:

Effect of diets containing genetically modified potatoes expressing Galanthus nivalis lectin on rat small intestine

Clue that this was not the end of the matter: Wiki's page on "The Puzstai Affair," cited above.

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The main thing to be concerned about is corn, not potatoes.

Says you, the same you that started the thread with a video on potatoes festering our guts.

Look at it this way, Jerry: if say humans eat, oh, a hundred pounds of Bt corn a year, and four hundred pounds of Bt potatoes, we should be more concerned about Bt corn? Here is what you say about the poison, expert or not:

Bt corn has a bacteria gene in it that produces a poison that kills insects that eat it. It kills the insects by rupturing their gut. When larger animals such as mice, rats, cattle eat it, it causes the intestinal wall to get thin, sometimes causing little holes. Not good. You do not want additional holes in your gut.

Jerry, brother, you are wrong to say 'causes the intestinal wall to get thin.' This is not even cited in the list of 65. In other words, nothing you have cited before supports this contention.

Now, here is another list for you, Jerry. First, did you know that the 'toxin' produced by the Bacillus thuringiensis was first used as a pesticide in the 1920s? Secondly, did you know that the herbicides containing Bt toxins are in use (approved for) so-called "organic farming."

Look up 'Dipel' organic pesticide**, and discover that the evil Bt protein is probably on your brocolli and cabbage right now!

__________________

Why should I use DiPel?

Simply put, growers use Btk because it works. DiPel has proven to be highly effective against

crop-damaging lepidoptera pests. Additionally, DiPel can be used as a stand-alone insecticide

or in your tank mix or as part of your crop protection rotation program. DiPel is an environmentally

friendly, Bt-based compound that has not been observed to be harmful to wildlife. In addition,

studies have shown that DiPel is not harmful to beneficial insects, including bees. DiPel can be

handled by workers efficiently without the use of costly protective gear normally associated with

other pesticides. DiPel can also play an integral part of a grower’s IPM program, offering

extraordinary relief when the pests build up resistance to other chemicals.

Edited by william.scherk
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The main thing to be concerned about is corn, not potatoes.

Says you, the same you that started the thread with a video on potatoes festering our guts.

Look at it this way, Jerry: if say humans eat, oh, a hundred pounds of Bt corn a year, and four hundred pounds of Bt potatoes, we should be more concerned about Bt corn? Here is what you say about the poison, expert or not:

Bt corn has a bacteria gene in it that produces a poison that kills insects that eat it. It kills the insects by rupturing their gut. When larger animals such as mice, rats, cattle eat it, it causes the intestinal wall to get thin, sometimes causing little holes. Not good. You do not want additional holes in your gut.

Jerry, brother, you are wrong to say 'causes the intestinal wall to get thin.' This is not even cited in the list of 65. In other words, nothing you have cited before supports this contention.

About 80-90% of corn in USA and probably in Canada is GE. GE potatoes is not yet on the GE list. That is why at present, corn is a bigger concern than potatoes. At present, I avoid only corn and wheat and soy, because of GE. (I avoid some other things for other reasons.)

I posted a video or 2 about Jeffrey Smith. There are plenty of Jeffrey Smith videos. They are not hard to find on youtube. Do you want me to post them?

Jeffrey tells the story of a farmer who put normal corn in one trough and GE corn in another trough. The cattle ate all the normal corn. Then they went to the GE corn and sniffed it or tasted it and refused to eat it. Other farmers did the same experiment and got the same results. Cattle, deer, mice, squirrels refused to eat GE corn. When scientists forced them to eat GE corn (either eat it or starve to death), bad things happened to them. Listen to a Jeffrey Smith video for the whole story.

One of the effects was thin intestinal walls. You imply that it can't happen because the btk toxin was approved for organic food and was proved harmless. But it did happen.

About organic: I don't have any use for organic. I see that as just a dishonest marketing ploy.

In India on one farm, all the cattle that ate GE cotton plants died in a day or so. Listen to Jeffrey Smith for the whole story.

Doctors are getting wonderful results prescribing only nonGE.

Listen to Jeffrey Smith for more stories. If you don't want to believe anything he says, you can investigate further.

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Do you really not understand the difference between "stories" and science?

Since when do you put any credence in doctors' reports of their wonderful results? I thought you did not trust any of them.

Science can be honest or dishonest. If the science is funded by industry, the result is predictable.

About doctors, I might trust their observations without trusting their theories. Besides a few doctors are good. There are doctors whose patients get well. They usually use methods that are contrary to what most people call science.

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I posted a video or 2 about Jeffrey Smith. There are plenty of Jeffrey Smith videos. They are not hard to find on youtube. Do you want me to post them?

[ . . . ]

Listen to Jeffrey Smith for more stories.

Here is Jeffrey Smith speaking at the conference Consciousness Beyond Chemtrails earlier this summer (he was the keynote speaker, but the featured guest was chemtrail expert Rosanne):

Speaking of holes in intestines, Jerry -- what do you think about chemtrails?

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Speaking of holes in intestines, Jerry -- what do you think about chemtrails?

It is not hard to find youtube videos about chemtrails. There is "What in the world are they spraying?" and "Why in the world are they spraying?" Obviously you would not be impressed by either of them, even if only because they are videos. And besides, these videos were made by people who are into conspiracy theories and that alone is enough to convince you that the videos have nothing but false information in them. And besides that, the videos suggest that government (or shadow government) is up to something bad and obviously that is unthinkable. And besides, the videos didn't pass scientific consensus in a peer reviewed journal with the peers being government approved.

What I think? Do you care?

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