Lest we forget...it is Veteran's Day

[Selene]

Edited November 11, 2010 by Selene

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

I want to echo a sentiment of Dennis Miller.

We are here in the USA living the life of Riley because the kooks on the periphery run into the badasses in our military.

(Back to me.)

Anyone who has fought for my rights and this republic (whether we agree or disagree with the leaders who sent the veteran to fight), putting his/her life on the line, has my profound gratitude.

Michael

[Greybird]

My father would have been 85 yesterday. (Since I'm posting in a thread like this, I did choose to wait until the official occasion had passed.) He was born when it was "Armistice Day," remembering when a war ended. He served in the Navy in World War II.

Yet as he admitted readily himself, the virtue of his life lay in his productive career, and in raising sons who came to abhor war and love liberty. Not in his military service.

We should think carefully about what we celebrate. We should also honor the veterans' lives by, as much as possible, refusing to create more of them — disabled (as, partly, was my father) or not. And by bringing our troops HOME to defend these shores and take up genuinely productive lives.

Please consider some food for thought.

[Brant Gaede]

My father would have been 85 yesterday. (Since I'm posting in a thread like this, I did choose to wait until the official occasion had passed.) He was born when it was "Armistice Day," remembering when a war ended. He served in the Navy in World War II.

Yet as he admitted readily himself, the virtue of his life lay in his productive career, and in raising sons who came to abhor war and love liberty. Not in his military service.

We should think carefully about what we celebrate. We should also honor the veterans' lives by, as much as possible, refusing to create more of them — disabled (as, partly, was my father) or not. And by bringing our troops HOME to defend these shores and take up genuinely productive lives.

Please consider some food for thought.

So, fuck off the cops and the soldiers and the firemen? Fuck off the medics who pull you out of your burning car and save your life? What the fuck is their PRODUCTIVITY? I heard bullets whistle and crack! But fuck my life if only that? Man, intellectual shit is bottom line just shit.

We're all in this together, brother!

--Brant

do u want to denigrate my uncle Dave? A silver star, several air medals, distinguished flying crosses, two or three purple hearts, over two-hundred combat hours BEFORE Vietnam? Pearl Harbor, Midway, Guadacanal, a year in the hospital, Korea? Oh, yeah, he then had a "genuinely productive" life as a real estate agent in Ohio. He's now 92 yo. He still has medal in his body fron exploding 20mm from a Japanese Zero that came at his B-17 head on while he manned the nose gun from the dead or wounded nose-guner. "Refusing to create more of them" is simply just another way of puttin real men out of business. Just ask the blacks and the welfare state about that! Children without fathers! My Mother is right howling in her bed. She's been doing that for the last 17 hours. Hope I get some sleep tonight. I haven't been productiuve in years taking care of two fathers and two mothers since a long time ago. Fuck me for not living one of those "genuinely productiuve lives"! Look, Jack, I've stil got my brains, and in spite of the shit I've done explained above, I still can turn out some real good productive stuff--and I really to want to--but why to sell it to you?

--Brant

fuck it all?

[Greybird]

I just love how an exhortation toward taking in some "food for thought" results in such reasoned discussion. It's what has made me make thousands and thousands of posts here, just like you.

{/sarcasm}

Oh, and I'll take your undoubtedly heroic uncle Dave and raise it with my uncle Bob: a silver star, several air medals, enlisted in the Royal Air Force at 17 (Germanic surname, so the USAAF didn't want him — then), identified 25 dead fighter-pilot colleagues of the American Eagle Squadron in the Battle of Britain, flew 25 missions himself, led squadrons of the USAAF in the invasions of North Africa and Sicily, operations officer, retired as full-bird USAF colonel. Took up a chemical engineer's career as he had trained for, with three degrees, getting six patents for rocket propellants. Four children. Disabled from multiple sclerosis due to the belated effect of the traumas of the Second World War. Died in 1978.

Yet he freely admitted, to me and to my mother (his sister), that only the engineering career and the children were genuinely productive elements of his life. The rest, including the war, was at best and on occasion "what we had to do." He was not proud of it.

Heroism, yes. Productivity, no. War is, always has been, and always will be a waste, completely and utterly. As is any effort undertaken by the State. Defense of one's family, homeland, and achievements — yes, including emergency responders — is NOT the same thing.

[Brant Gaede]

I just love how an exhortation toward taking in some "food for thought" results in such reasoned discussion. It's what has made me make thousands and thousands of posts here, just like you.

{/sarcasm}

Oh, and I'll take your undoubtedly heroic uncle Dave and raise it with my uncle Bob: a silver star, several air medals, enlisted in the Royal Air Force at 17 (Germanic surname, so the USAAF didn't want him — then), identified 25 dead fighter-pilot colleagues of the American Eagle Squadron in the Battle of Britain, flew 25 missions himself, led squadrons of the USAAF in the invasions of North Africa and Sicily, operations officer, retired as full-bird USAF colonel. Took up a chemical engineer's career as he had trained for, with three degrees, getting six patents for rocket propellants. Four children. Disabled from multiple sclerosis due to the belated effect of the traumas of the Second World War. Died in 1978.

Yet he freely admitted, to me and to my mother (his sister), that only the engineering career and the children were genuinely productive elements of his life. The rest, including the war, was at best and on occasion "what we had to do." He was not proud of it.

Heroism, yes. Productivity, no. War is, always has been, and always will be a waste, completely and utterly. As is any effort undertaken by the State. Defense of one's family, homeland, and achievements — yes, including emergency responders — is NOT the same thing.

But you wrote your post anyway.

.

--Brant.

[Brant Gaede]

It's an easy thing to do to mentally separate productive from protective work but practically speaking it's all one big ball of wax. The latter makes it safe and possible for the former. It is unseemly, however, in the context of what two different uncles et al. once heroically did to effectively denigrate them for an irrational anti-war, anti-state agenda, which is not to say there aren't rational anti-war, anti-state agendas. That was just the epitome of cheap.

--Brant

[Selene]

Once again, thank all of you veterans for your service.

Also, Happy 239th Birthday of the United States Marine Corps...

As Ronnie Reagan stated clearly:

"Some people spend an entire lifetime wondering if they made a difference in the world. But, the Marines don't have that problem."

Remember that the Marines marched five hundred [500] miles across the desert to liberate our sailors from the Muslim terrorists at Tripoli. No GPS, no air cover, just being Marines.

A...

[Nerian]

I always felt some kind of vague annoyance as a kid whenever adults would say, 'these people died so you could be free, you know.' They directed at me as if I should feel guilty or should feel some emotion they could see I wasn't feeling. I thought, 'I didn't ask them to. Didn't they do it for themselves? For their family? They didn't know me.' So to this day, I don't like it. But abstractly, I'm glad people fought for freedom, and it takes heroic courage, and I respect that.

[Selene]

I always felt some kind of vague annoyance as a kid whenever adults would say, 'these people died so you could be free, you know.' They directed at me as if I should feel guilty or should feel some emotion they could see I wasn't feeling. I thought, 'I didn't ask them to. Didn't they do it for themselves? For their family? They didn't know me.' So to this day, I don't like it. But abstractly, I'm glad people fought for freedom, and it takes heroic courage, and I respect that.

Out of curiosity, do you have any family, friends, etc. who are Veterans?

A...

[tmj]

I thanked a veteran of WW2 for his service he responded by saying "you were worth it". I was floored.

[BaalChatzaf]

To the "ordinary" folks who stormed the beaches of Normandy, my thanks.

These folks did more for me than I ever did or could do for them.

Ba'al Chatzaf

[Selene]

I thanked a veteran of WW2 for his service he responded by saying "you were worth it". I was floored.

Inteeresting folks, wouldn't you say?

Were you able to meet his eyes, assuming it was a him?

If so, could you see his sincerity?

A...

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

I've seen what non-freedom looks like. And I learned that is man's natural state, not freedom.

Free people have to fend off bullies by default and keep fending them off.

So my gratitude goes out to all veterans.

I'm sorry for the ones who died or got injured when some old farts waged unnecessary wars.

But I'm still grateful they were willing to go and even die to preserve what we have in the USA.

Without them, the bullies would have come by now.

Michael

[tmj]

Adam

Yes I was shaking his and looking in his eyes, I believe he was being sincere. I think he noticed me being taken aback by his remark and seemed to almost feel bad about that, this gentleman struck me as Santa and Father Flanagan and all the best grandpas all wrapped up in one. And 'just' a guy , too. I hope he understood my sincerity, I think he did.

[Selene]

Adam

Yes I was shaking his and looking in his eyes, I believe he was being sincere. I think he noticed me being taken aback by his remark and seemed to almost feel bad about that, this gentleman struck me as Santa and Father Flanagan and all the best grandpas all wrapped up in one. And 'just' a guy , too. I hope he understood my sincerity, I think he did.

I know he did.

You did well.

My compliments.

A...

[Francisco Ferrer]

Who paid for the war hero's uniform, helmet, rifle and ammunition? Who financed his transportation to the war zone, his hospital bills after his injury, his rehabilitation, his college education and his pension?

So why no federal holiday for the guy who foot the bill? Why no statues in the nation's capital? No parades, no yellow ribbons, no "thank you for your service," no retail discounts, no movies starring John Wayne.

Perhaps because no one feels comfortable hero-worshipping a milch cow.

[tmj]

FF

Well we do have Labor Day , and didn't the able bodied returning vets become the milch cows?

They came back with added bonus of having their taxes on wages 'distibuted' weekly too. Weekly payroll deductions started during WW2 and I think they were supposed to end at the cessation of the hostilities, but it seems a constant cash flow stream was too hard to give up.

[Selene]

Who paid for the war hero's uniform, helmet, rifle and ammunition? Who financed his transportation to the war zone, his hospital bills after his injury, his rehabilitation, his college education and his pension?

So why no federal holiday for the guy who foot the bill? Why no statues in the nation's capital? No parades, no yellow ribbons, no "thank you for your service," no retail discounts, no movies starring John Wayne.

Perhaps because no one feels comfortable hero-worshipping a milch cow.

Who has defended your right to ask really stupid rhetorical questions?

A...

[Francisco Ferrer]

FF

Well we do have Labor Day , and didn't the able bodied returning vets become the milch cows?

They came back with added bonus of having their taxes on wages 'distibuted' weekly too. Weekly payroll deductions started during WW2 and I think they were supposed to end at the cessation of the hostilities, but it seems a constant cash flow stream was too hard to give up.

If Labor Day were not a holiday to celebrate unions but instead honored those who sacrificed their incomes for the betterment of federal paycheck collectors, then it would be called Tax Slave Day and would be observed not in September but on Tax Freedom Day.

Dr. Gary North has rightly proposed that the payroll (or withholding) tax, invented by Milton Friedman in WWII. be abolished. Instead annual income taxes would be due on the first Tuesday after the first Monday in November. Voters would mark their ballots on the same day they wrote a check for a whole year's worth of taxes. Revolt ensues.

[Francisco Ferrer]

Who paid for the war hero's uniform, helmet, rifle and ammunition? Who financed his transportation to the war zone, his hospital bills after his injury, his rehabilitation, his college education and his pension?

So why no federal holiday for the guy who foot the bill? Why no statues in the nation's capital? No parades, no yellow ribbons, no "thank you for your service," no retail discounts, no movies starring John Wayne.

Perhaps because no one feels comfortable hero-worshipping a milch cow.

Who has defended your right to ask really stupid rhetorical questions?

A...

The foremost opponents of honoring that beast of burden the taxpayer would be those who wish to preserve the illusion that taxes are not a form of theft but voluntary contributions. They include a former IRS commissioner and Harry Reid.

In any case, here's the monument I have in mind. It would stand about 300 feet tall on the mall in Washington, financed, of course, by contributions that are actually voluntary.

[Selene]

By the way, that is a great political cartoon...is the date February 9th, 1878?

[Nerian]

I always felt some kind of vague annoyance as a kid whenever adults would say, 'these people died so you could be free, you know.' They directed at me as if I should feel guilty or should feel some emotion they could see I wasn't feeling. I thought, 'I didn't ask them to. Didn't they do it for themselves? For their family? They didn't know me.' So to this day, I don't like it. But abstractly, I'm glad people fought for freedom, and it takes heroic courage, and I respect that.

Out of curiosity, do you have any family, friends, etc. who are Veterans?

A...

No.

[Brant Gaede]

I always felt some kind of vague annoyance as a kid whenever adults would say, 'these people died so you could be free, you know.' They directed at me as if I should feel guilty or should feel some emotion they could see I wasn't feeling. I thought, 'I didn't ask them to. Didn't they do it for themselves? For their family? They didn't know me.' So to this day, I don't like it. But abstractly, I'm glad people fought for freedom, and it takes heroic courage, and I respect that.

Out of curiosity, do you have any family, friends, etc. who are Veterans?

A...

No.

Fighting and dying for freedom is an American cultural bromide for America never fought for Americans' freedom except The Revolutionary War. There are two or three others worth arguing about, namely The Civil War, WWII and The Cold War and its proxy shooting wars. (I'm talking about major conflicts.)

--Brant

[BaalChatzaf]

Fighting and dying for freedom is an American cultural bromide for America never fought for Americans' freedom except The Revolutionary War. There are two or three others worth arguing about, namely The Civil War, WWII and The Cold War and its proxy shooting wars. (I'm talking about major conflicts.)

--Brant

We had to fight in WW2. The continuation of civilization was at stake.