Solving a Puzzle-- Understanding Some People's Reactions

[seymourblogger]

I remember there were lots of people I knew being joyous that the shah was going down. A mistake. Even the Iranian people acknowledged their mistake. Some of them. Foucault did too BTW, publicly. When he was wrong he changed his mind. Like Churchill. What do you do?

As I understand it, Foucault's basic point was that it is inappropriate to judge Islamic culture -- including its horrendous treatment of women -- by Western standards. Correct?

Ghs

Yes. Islamic countries are within the Sacred Order not the Order of Production, not a Secular order. You cannot judge them from within ours, tempting as that may be. I presume you are talking about genital cutting among other things. Stoning because of adultery, etc.

They are a culture that has a great fear of women. And women are the cornerstone of their culture /religion. Exchange and property. This is a total belief system. And I think you know about beliefs. You may suppress the behavior but you are not going to get rid of it. You may punish and try them as we do in the US, but thaat still is only going to suppress it, the belief will still be there. Maybe here after a few generations it will not happen. Ousmane Sembene's last film was on genital mutilation. He is a filmmaker, educated in France, from Somalia and has always done films on taboo subjects, exposing hypocrisy. It shows that other women in the village are the most adamant on the cutting, and the young girls want it as a ritual of feminine adulthood, otherwise they will not be marriageable and then what do they have if they cannot marry. It's complicated. Mothers often try to spare their daughters, but other women undermine them, grab their daughters and do it anyway against her wishes. Human rights belong to secular orders not sacred orders.

Then why do they judge our culture?

--Brant

Whaaaat! What kind of question is that? How would I know the thousands of reasons they do. They do because they do, just as we judge them.

A question well asked is one half the answer - Bacon

Really if you ask questions like that you can never find out anything or know anything.

I missed this one. I studied cultural anthropology in college. I didn't know you were a cultural anthropologist.

--Brant

why didn't you say so?

I've studied some cultural anthropology. With Wallace at Penn. He seemed bored with teaching it. I've read more widely. Do I consider myself a cultural anthropologist. Actually I don't consider myself anything with an academic label anymore.

How come you can get away with one line responses. Or does Michael get after you also?

[seymourblogger]

Integrity is doing what you think is the right thing in spite of the easier, seemingly less costly thing. Integrity is righting your wronging. Etc. Living by your principles reminds me of one character in Victor Hugo's Ninety Three who travelled about France with a guillotine or that guy (Javert) who chased the protagonist of Hugo's Les Miserables through the novel and the sewers of Paris. It's not that living by your principles is necessarily wrong, but that you may be wrong about your principles.

--Brant

I like the way you wrote that.

[seymourblogger]

Brant,

Yup.

I don't know how consistency of behavior (consistency to principles) got translated into "absolutes" by someone who claims to have been a therapist.

But there it is.

Michael

Are you really trying to bait me with all these comments directed at me. You can just tell me directly that you would rather I not be here. I can deal with that. Why this incessant pestering. I answer you each time because you are the director of the site. The only reason. Just say what you mean and mean what you say. I can handle it.

[Brant Gaede]

How come you can get away with one line responses. Or does Michael get after you also?

They're made of gold and dress up the joint.

--Brant

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

You can just tell me directly that you would rather I not be here. I can deal with that.

OK,

I hadn't really thought of it in these terms until now, but I'd rather you not be here.

I don't mind discussing post modernism. I don't mind people disagreeing or any of the rest.

I do mind your constant sterile mind games.

And I don't like you.

I built this site to attract people interested in ideas. Not preachers.

You need a flock. That's not going to happen here.

If for no other reason than I'm in the way.

Michael

[seymourblogger]

You can just tell me directly that you would rather I not be here. I can deal with that.

OK,

I hadn't really thought of it in these terms until now, but I'd rather you not be here.

I don't mind discussing post modernism. I don't mind people disagreeing or any of the rest.

I do mind your constant sterile mind games.

And I don't like you.

I built this site to attract people interested in ideas. Not preachers.

You need a flock. That's not going to happen here.

If for no other reason than I'm in the way.

Michael

Done. See honesty is best, isn't it.

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

Done. See honesty is best, isn't it.

Dream on.

You didn't teach me honesty in relating to people and you didn't control it just now.

I just got fed up and cut my flexibility short.

I'm tired of trying to find a way to make a sanctimonious stuffed peacock palatable.

Michael

[Brant Gaede]

The Discourse is changing in many different fields. It's speed is breathtaking. When you get old it can seem as if the world is whizzing past you because it's so different from when you were young. Old people tend to keep moaning about the good ol days and how the world is going to hell faster and faster. Well, it always has been. Nothing new there. But to be involved in learning something radically new feels like waking up from the fog.

Like Scarlet.

Not so far back a computer-math-physicist-type whiz wrote a book entitled A New Kind of Science. It didn't matter what kind of science; it was all going to be displaced and recast. I said to myself, he's throwing himself right at the heart of scientific academica and will bounce right off its walls. This is because he was saying all your expertise and credentials mean nothing to my expertise; you will now bow to Zod! I can't evaluate his book and I know I couldn't even if I were to read it. I got this thought from reading some previews. Scientifically he may be right. I only say that out of an ignorance that cannot really address what he said. But I knew he was saying even genius in a stupid way. Now you drive in here with your Wombat 12 DD--not! and you bounce off the walls. Unlike the science, however, I have a much better handle on what is going on for I've been going down on it all my life--in spite of the salty taste. So far, you are only the Chinaman who suddenly appears in Rome 100 AD with a message from your biggies, inscribed on silken tapestry. Silk? We'll take it! Spice? We'll take it! Message? Uh. Sure. Thanks.

--Brant

when do you invent gunpowder?

[9thdoctor]

I hadn't really thought of it in these terms until now, but I'd rather you not be here.

Done.

[Brant Gaede]

Phil cut short. Don't ask the question if you don't know the answer. Janet also got caught up in the inertia thing Michael had with Phil. I have a feeling future Janets will also get caught up in that inertia. It took a long time to build up.

--Brant

it would have been continually more of the same and enough's been said several times over already

[Brant Gaede]

I'm tired of trying to find a way to make a sanctimonious stuffed peacock palatable.

Michael

Wrap in aluminum foil and put in the dishwasher set high temp and pan cycle and let 'er rip!

--Brant

oops!--sorry--that's for fish

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

Brant,

I don't know what you mean by inertia, but it's true I probably would have been more patient if this crap had not come on the heels of Phil's monkey-shines.

Getting all this experience with lonely underachieving control freaks might end up leading me to be unfair at times, but these people take up so much goddam time it's not funny. And there's never any payoff. You never see good things happen from them.

No matter what they do, no matter what you do, it always comes back to them bitching about you. bitching about the people on OL, bitching about their betters, and bitching in general. And that's their main point.

Bitch bitch bitch bitch bitch...

Also, they're so friggen' needy.

Here's a secret, though.

I feel sorry for them.

I know it doesn't look like it, but I do. I don't like bashing a little old lady. It doesn't seem fair. My inner Southern gentleman is honking the big fat honk at me right now--and boy is he pissed. I almost feel guilty.

It's just I've seen what happens when I try to compromise with the self-image thing these needy souls try to impose on the projects I've built (or here at an interactive place like OL, we've built). The project always falls apart. The project people scatter. The neuros find a new victim in no time. I get left with bitterness. And everybody talks shit about me. This has been 100% of the time where I let it happen.

Nowadays I cut it before it gets toxic. (I admit, we did have a close call with Pross.)

But here's the bottom line. If sometimes I gotta be an asshole to keep things together...

Well...

OK...

I don't like being an asshole, but I'll do it if I need to.

Michael

[9thdoctor]

Phil cut short. Don't ask the question if you don't know the answer.

I don’t think that she and Phil are all that similar. If I may refer back to the typology set out here, Phil is primarily a fool, with maybe a redeeming strain of moronism. Janet’s a textbook lunatic, and also a fully qualified cretin. It's bad enough online, imagine if you had to deal with one of those in real life!

[seymourblogger]

The Discourse is changing in many different fields. It's speed is breathtaking. When you get old it can seem as if the world is whizzing past you because it's so different from when you were young. Old people tend to keep moaning about the good ol days and how the world is going to hell faster and faster. Well, it always has been. Nothing new there. But to be involved in learning something radically new feels like waking up from the fog.

Like Scarlet.

Not so far back a computer-math-physicist-type whiz wrote a book entitled A New Kind of Science. It didn't matter what kind of science; it was all going to be displaced and recast. I said to myself, he's throwing himself right at the heart of scientific academica and will bounce right off its walls. This is because he was saying all your expertise and credentials mean nothing to my expertise; you will now bow to Zod! I can't evaluate his book and I know I couldn't even if I were to read it. I got this thought from reading some previews. Scientifically he may be right. I only say that out of an ignorance that cannot really address what he said. But I knew he was saying even genius in a stupid way. Now you drive in here with your Wombat 12 DD--not! and you bounce off the walls. Unlike the science, however, I have a much better handle on what is going on for I've been going down on it all my life--in spite of the salty taste. So far, you are only the Chinaman who suddenly appears in Rome 100 AD with a message from your biggies, inscribed on silken tapestry. Silk? We'll take it! Spice? We'll take it! Message? Uh. Sure. Thanks.

--Brant

when do you invent gunpowder?

As you said I don't have the staying power. so I'm gone. It didn't occur tome that no one knew anything at all about what I was talking about. Foucault's work is not exactly mainstream in academia,but it is taught, seminars are held in it, and it is an intellectual force. That people at solo from New Zealand would not be keen on it is expected, but I thought the intellectual level here might be broader as in the very beginning there were a few that were not antagonistic and were very knowledgeable, so I was mistaken in generalizing.

I didn't expect Michael as director of the site to be so heavily involved in its day to day. Almost every post of mine received an email that he had replied. I gradually weeded out everyone else that I didn't want continued arguments with, but it was difficult for me to ignore Michael as it is his site. It was a constant harassment to me and I realized it was his way of trying to get me to leave as he didn't seem able to just say it directly. So I did it for him. And of course every reply explaining myself just dug me in deeper. When I replied in one-liners, that was not acceptable either. I really am only interested in talking with a very few people here, but I have been inundated with those I had no interest in and there seemed no way to avoid them the way the software is set up.

I don't know what the agenda is here but evidently MIchael does not want to offend the VIP people nor have them leave and I can understand that. But I have an agenda that doesn't fit here and I don't intend to change. I have loved funning around with you and I love the way you keep turning things on their head. I will miss that. Very much.

See you at solo from time to time. Only you are not so easy going there. Nor am I. A pity says Jane.

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

Wrap in aluminum foil and put in the dishwasher set high temp and pan cycle and let 'er rip!

--Brant

oops!--sorry--that's for fish

Brant,

Or like my father once said about cooking carp.

Get a freshly soaked cedar plank for proper smoke. Make sure it didn't have any chemical treatment. Put the carp on it with lots of preparations and seasoning I won't go into right here. Grill until the carp is smoked and cooked.

Then throw away the fish and eat the plank.

Michael

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

I didn't expect Michael as director of the site to be so heavily involved in its day to day.

This is exactly what I'm talking about.

That's why I keep an eye on this stuff.

I don't know what the agenda is here...

Does anyone think she was ever interested in finding out?

Heh.

She's got plans and this site looked pretty juicy.

Michael

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

incidentally, for the record, all VIP members, as well as all other kinds of members know that they come and go as they please.

I have always said what is good for them is good for OL. I don't pander, neither to I expect to be pandered to.

So it's all good.

(A few of times backstage, someone has threatened to leave OL unless XXX or YYY happens, or unless I ban AAA or BBB, or whatever. I've always told them to do as they please, because, for me, it's for the best whatever they do. And I have done what I think is right. Some left. Some stayed. Some took some time off and returned. Ultimately, what's best for the person is best for everyone.)

I do have special affection and respect for the VIP members. That's why they are VIP.

Michael

[Brant Gaede]

I didn't expect Michael as director of the site to be so heavily involved in its day to day.

This is exactly what I'm talking about.

That's why I keep an eye on this stuff.

I don't know what the agenda is here...

Does anyone think she was ever interested in finding out?

Heh.

She's got plans and this site looked pretty juicy.

Not as juicy as Ayn Rand.

--Brant

[George H. Smith]

As you said I don't have the staying power. so I'm gone. It didn't occur tome that no one knew anything at all about what I was talking about. Foucault's work is not exactly mainstream in academia,but it is taught, seminars are held in it, and it is an intellectual force. That people at solo from New Zealand would not be keen on it is expected, but I thought the intellectual level here might be broader as in the very beginning there were a few that were not antagonistic and were very knowledgeable, so I was mistaken in generalizing.

Early on I invited you to start a thread on Foucault in which you could explain why you find his ideas worthwhile. You responded by calling this a "trap." Not once have you progressed beyond spouting Foucauldian jargon. Not once have you made even a minimal effort to present his ideas in a coherent fashion. So don't lecture us about our supposed "intellectual level." Your behavior on OL has been abysmal. Among other things, you repeatedly refused to explain your utterly bizarre interpretations of Ayn Rand, apparently believing that your ex cathedra pronouncements would be sufficient.

The irony of all this is that your presence on OL caused me to begin rereading Foucault's The Order of Things. This confirmed what I had hitherto suspected, namely, that you don't even understand him. You have repeatedly misused Foulcault's notion of a dominant discourse, for example; and your claim that he merely provides a "tool box," not a theory, is thoroughly misleading.

Ghs

[George H. Smith]

No wonder he raves against Foucault.

For 3.52 it can be yours. Plus postage of course.

You can get a used hardcover of Cosmopolis for $2.00. Exactly what does that prove? There are 262 Amazon reviews of ATCAG, average 4 stars, and only 87 of Cosmopolis, average 3 stars, what does that prove? If you added up the number of Amazon reviews of all the works of Michel Foucault combined, would it be more than 262? Doesn’t look like it, not even close. And there’s plenty of cheap used copies of Foucault for sale too.

http://www.amazon.co...r_id=B000AP6Y1O

MSK: whatever happened to the 5 posts a day club? Are they still accepting members? I think there are regulars who would like to enjoy breathing the Phil-free air, while it lasts.

Did Phil officially quit OL again? Or is he just taking a breather?

Ghs

[9thdoctor]

Did Phil officially quit OL again? Or is he just taking a breather?

I read it as "officially quit", but we've seen this before, so "taking a breather" is almost certainly how it will work out.

** Actually no I won't. I always knew Michael would eventually prove to, like Linz and Diana, kick me out or start deleting posts of mine he didn't like. And that just started today. So he just crossed the line for me: Sayonara.

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

George,

Phil is free to come and go as he pleases.

He's pissed because I deleted a couple of posts rather than throwing them into the Garbage Pile. But they were the same old same old, plus I was getting carpet-bombed by him and the Foucault Flash/Derrida Daredevil, and he practically dared me.

I was spending too much time babysitting him, trying to reason with him, getting irked at him and backing off, and moving his crap around. For a few days, between him and the newcomer, that's all I practically did. I had other things I should have been doing that were getting way behind. So I told him to give it a rest for a while. It was getting to be too much. He responded by pouring it on. So I deleted the crap.

Fuck it.

I didn't mess with some posts he made after the ones I deleted because they weren't the schoolteacher reprimanding the kindergarten class and how it sucks to be us on OL routine. I don't know if he removed them or if they are still up--usually a person who gets pissed like that goes into "I'm taking my marbles and going home" mode, so I wouldn't be surprised if he did. I know I should look, but I can't muster the interest anymore.

Whether he makes his absence permanent or temporary, I don't know. Frankly, I don't care.

Michael

[PDS]

George,

Phil is free to come and go as he pleases.

He's pissed because I deleted a couple of posts rather than throwing them into the Garbage Pile. But they were the same old same old, plus I was getting carpet-bombed by him and the Foucault Flash/Derrida Daredevil, and he practically dared me.

I was spending too much time babysitting him, trying to reason with him, getting irked at him and backing off, and moving his crap around. For a few days, between him and the newcomer, that's all I practically did. I had other things I should have been doing that were getting way behind. So I told him to give it a rest for a while. It was getting to be too much. He responded by pouring it on. So I deleted the crap.

Fuck it.

I didn't mess with some posts he made after the ones I deleted because they weren't the schoolteacher reprimanding the kindergarten class and how it sucks to be us on OL routine. I don't know if he removed them or if they are still up--usually a person who gets pissed like that goes into "I'm taking my marbles and going home" mode, so I wouldn't be surprised if he did. I know I should look, but I can't muster the interest anymore.

Whether he makes his absence permanent or temporary, I don't know. Frankly, I don't care.

Michael

MSK: at least you have the consolation of knowing that you are paid very well to run this site, put up with such behaviors, etc.

Right? [imagine a smiley-face wink thingee here...]

With no sucking-up intended, you are far more patient than many of these circumstances call for.

[Selene]

PDS makes his usual solid on point statements.

It would be an interesting experiment to create a Coventry Corner, kind of like a "time-out" area where the our of control Phil type posts could de channeled. Then whoever wanted to see then would go to that corner and read them, but they would not be on the main forum board.

By the way, PDS, why would the female attorney in the Georgia case on O'bama's eligibility have herself sworn in and take the stand?

I thought attorneys, being "Officers of the Court" avoid being sworn in for a number of reasons.

Adam

[PDS]

PDS makes his usual solid on point statements.

It would be an interesting experiment to create a Coventry Corner, kind of like a "time-out" area where the our of control Phil type posts could de channeled. Then whoever wanted to see then would go to that corner and read them, but they would not be on the main forum board.

By the way, PDS, why would the female attorney in the Georgia case on O'bama's eligibility have herself sworn in and take the stand?

I thought attorneys, being "Officers of the Court" avoid being sworn in for a number of reasons.

Adam

Depends on the jurisdiction, and the subject matter of the issue. Routine representations are made as "officers of the court."

What you describe doesn't sound routine...