Recrud-what?


Mark

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Antisemitism and the Failures to Recognize its Recrudescence
Sunday - June 9, 2013 at the Intercontinental Hotel, Los Angeles.

A panel discussion following the talk
“Is Eurabia Inevitable” by Daniel Pipes
featuring:
  • Elan Journo – Ayn Rand Institute
  • Michel Gurfinkel – Valeurs Actuelles, Commentary, Weekly Standard
  • Ronnie Fraser – Academic Friends of Israel
  • Charles Asher Small – Hoover Institution, Institute for the Study of Global Antisemitism and Policy.
    Moderated by Roberta Seid – America Israel Demographic Research Group, StandWithUs.

On the first day of the two day event “Europe’s Last Stand? Debt, Demography and the Abandonment of National Sovereignty” organized by the American Freedom Alliance. AFA was founded by Avi Davis, former director at the Streisand Center for Jewish Cultural Arts and at American Associates, Ben-Gurion University. AFA opposes Moslem immigration into Europe and the U.S. but takes no stand on Third World immigration in general. You will look in vain among the 25 speakers at “Europe’s Last Stand” for Peter Brimelow or any other immigration patriot. StandWithUs is an international organization fighting boycotts of Israel.

Recrudescence: something bad breaking out again after a brief lapse.

Considering the affiliations of the panelists it looks like the reason they're against Moslem immigration is that it's bad for Jews or bad for Israel.

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A word about the word "anti-semitism". It was coined by Willhelm Marr and it was intended by Marr to mean hatred of Jews. It does NOT pertain to Semites in general which would include any culture that historically spoke and wrote Arabic or its predecessor Urguretic.

From the Wiki Article:

\Antisemitism (also spelled anti-semitism or anti-Semitism) is prejudice, hatred of, or discrimination against Jews for reasons connected to their Jewish heritage. A person who holds such positions is called an "antisemite".

While the term's etymology might suggest that antisemitism is directed against all Semitic peoples, the term was coined in the late 19th century in Germany as a more scientific-sounding term for Judenhass ("Jew-hatred"),[1] and that has been its normal use since then.[2] For the purposes of a 2005 U.S. governmental report, antisemitism was considered "hatred toward Jews—individually and as a group—that can be attributed to the Jewish religion and/or ethnicity."[3]

Antisemitism may be manifested in many ways, ranging from expressions of hatred of or discrimination against individual Jews to organized violent attacks by mobs, state police, or even military attacks on entire Jewish communities. Although the term did not come into common usage until the 19th century, it is now also applied to historic anti-Jewish incidences. Notable instances ofpersecution include the pogroms which preceded the First Crusade in 1096, the expulsion from England in 1290, the massacres of Spanish Jews in 1391, the persecutions of the Spanish Inquisition, the expulsion from Spain in 1492, Cossack massacres in Ukraine, various pogroms in Russia, the Dreyfus affair, the Holocaust, official Soviet anti-Jewish policies and the Jewish exodus from Arab and Muslim countries.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Among the leading anti-semites of the world today are Muslim extremists. They want to bury the hatchet all right, mostly in the skulls of Jews.

Ba'al Chatzaf

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Any Arab hatred of Jews has nothing to do with earlier pogroms. The anti-semitism of the Arabs is in reaction to the Zionist intrusion and takeover of Palestine. If the intruders had been gentile the same Arabs would have been anti-gentilic – as today they are anyway, because the U.S. government supports and arms Israel.

Practically the entire Bolshevik leadership – e.g. Trotsky, Yagoda, Kaganovich, Raikhman, Kamenev, Zinoviev, etc (I got tired) – was Jewish and the Soviet leadership was heavily Jewish even years after Trotsky was expelled. At least one pogrom is understandable, though insofar as it was indiscriminate and extra-judicial it was unjustifiable, namely what the Finns did to the Soviet occupiers and their sympathizers, and innocent Jews who had nothing to do with either, when the Finns got the upper hand.

Why all the pogroms Kolker lists against the Jews? The populace thought to themselves, "Those Jews are so good, let’s have a pogrom!"

If Americans ever come to realize what B’nai B’rith and some other Jewish groups – don’t leave out the neocons – have done to America (made government halfway communist, made whites a shrinking minority, and involved us in endless war) and are trying to do (end freedom of speech with hate crime laws), they will rightly hate them and those who support them – and not because they are good. For all he knows the pogroms Kolker listed had some explanation, if not justification, as in the Finnish example.

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^ ^ ^

Oh really? Muslims have been going after Jews almost since the beginning of Islam.

But let us look at the 19th century well before modern zionism:

Here is an excerpt from the Wiki article on Muslim wars against the Jews.

19th century [edit]
220px-Jews_in_Jerusalem_1890s.jpg
magnify-clip.png
Photochrom of Jews in Jerusalem, in the 1890s.

In 1834, in Safed local Muslim Arabs carried out a massacre of the indigenous (Old Yishuv) Jewish population of that city in the Safed Plunder.[citation needed]

In 1839, in the eastern Persian city of Meshed, a mob burst into the Jewish Quarter, burned the synagogue, and destroyed the Torah scrolls. It was only by forcible conversion that a massacre was averted.[27] There was another massacre in Barfurush in 1867.[28][29] In 1839, the Allahdad incident, the Jews of Mashhad, Iran, now known as the Mashhadi Jews, were coerced into converting to Islam.[30]

In the middle of the 19th century, J. J. Benjamin wrote about the life of Persian Jews:

"…they are obliged to live in a separate part of town…; for they are considered as unclean creatures… Under the pretext of their being unclean, they are treated with the greatest severity and should they enter a street, inhabited by Mussulmans, they are pelted by the boys and mobs with stones and dirt… For the same reason, they are prohibited to go out when it rains; for it is said the rain would wash dirt off them, which would sully the feet of the Mussulmans… If a Jew is recognized as such in the streets, he is subjected to the greatest insults. The passers-by spit in his face, and sometimes beat him… unmercifully… If a Jew enters a shop for anything, he is forbidden to inspect the goods… Should his hand incautiously touch the goods, he must take them at any price the seller chooses to ask for them... Sometimes the Persians intrude into the dwellings of the Jews and take possession of whatever please them. Should the owner make the least opposition in defense of his property, he incurs the danger of atoning for it with his life... If... a Jew shows himself in the street during the three days of the Katel (Muharram)…, he is sure to be murdered."
[
31
]

In 1840, the Jews of Damascus were falsely accused of having murdered a Christian monk and his Muslim servant and of having used their blood to bake Passover bread.[32] A Jewish barber was tortured until he "confessed"; two other Jews who were arrested died under torture, while a third converted to Islam to save his life. Throughout the 1860s, the Jews of Libya were subjected to what Gilbert calls punitive taxation. In 1864, around 500 Jews were killed in Marrakech and Fez in Morocco. In 1869, 18 Jews were killed in Tunis, and an Arab mob looted Jewish homes and stores, and burned synagogues, on Jerba Island. In 1875, 20 Jews were killed by a mob in Demnat, Morocco; elsewhere in Morocco, Jews were attacked and killed in the streets in broad daylight. In 1897, synagogues were ransacked and Jews were murdered in Tripolitania.[27]

Here is the reference to the entire article:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Jews_under_Muslim_rule

This business goes back a long way. Long before Hertzel and modern zionism.

Mohommed get pissed off against the Jews for approximately the same reason that Martin Luther on his death bed cursed the Jews and wished that they all should burn.

Ba'al Chatzaf

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Bob,

Who cares about facts when myths are so much easier for the brain to sleep on?

:smile:

There is a reason I generally don't mind Mark's framing of his dislike of all things Jewish, while I do not condone the other stuff I have thrown into the Garbage Pile.

With the exception of his recent attitude implying there is no such thing as Arab hatred of Jews, he is generally objective and specific in his bias. For example, he cites specific people at ARI and their distorted pro-Jewish agenda, which is perceivable in their own words. In other words, should they be pro-Eskimo instead, I believe he would be harping on that instead of Israel.

He does not say or imply "all Jews this" or "all Jews that." In other words, except for some massive blanking out of antisemitic hatred in the Muslim world just now, he normally deals with facts and leaves the myths behind.

Even his Zionist criticism sounds more like an Ancap "empire of America" complaint than scapegoating Jews or treating them as a different animal than the rest of humanity.

I don't mind talking about resentment over land and the USA meddling in local governments. It's real and I've seen it with my own eyes overseas.

I do think it's a gross oversimplification to pretend this is the only problem, seeing the vast Muslim immigration all over the world and the bigoted garbage anyone can get for free from the Muslim world on MEMRI TV. And the vast array of differing lobbying interests in the USA government (which he ignores). This is my main problem with his argument, but I believe it is an intellectual bias thing, not an outright bigotry thing.

I wonder why facts are so hard to accept when people hate. Keeping it real is so much better--even for doing something about the hated target.

I guess the underlying issue is what makes a person feel good, not what is true or effective.

Michael

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MSK makes Robert Kolker look good, some feat! According to Michael I’m not just mistaken about the Arabs and Jews pre-Zionism, my mistake is due to a deluded psychology.

Admittedly my view of the earlier Arabs was partly based on Mark Twain’s autobiographical Innocents Abroad (written from diaries) about an excursion to the Holy Land in 1867. The arabs he saw were farmers and merchants, along with a few innocuous nomads and a couple of industrious servants to the excursionists. The only violence he mentions is trigger happy excursionists firing their guns in the air for the heck of it. He refers once to Riffians – a mountain race – as "born cutthroats," but he doesn’t give details and anyway they’re not considered a semitic race.

Despite Mark Twain’s experience it looks like Jews no more lived in peace with Arabs than they did with Europeans and Russians. This even if you don’t buy every one of Kolker’s examples. (If you believe the ADL Leo Frank was the innocent victim of anti-semitism.)

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According to Michael I’m not just mistaken about the Arabs and Jews pre-Zionism, my mistake is due to a deluded psychology.

Mark,

This is wrong.

The mistake is being so much in love with a conclusion that it blinds you to facts that do not support it.

This is different than a truly "deluded psychology."

This is everyday garden variety confirmation bias, maybe beefed up a little.

Agree or disagree, that's my meaning.

Michael

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Michael addresses what he thinks is my personality. How shall I reply? That I don't think I'm blind?

MSK: Well, he would say that !

My answer to Kolker amounts to this: The idea that "all Jews are good all the time" is all wrong. It’s time people realized the evil done to America by B’nai B’rith and many other Jewish groups. The Christians get all the ink, but I think they’re pikers compared to the Jews.

Must I preface Christians with "some" or "the worst" and ditto for Jews, or can I expect Michael to understand what is obvious?

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Mark,

Bob never says "all Jews are good all the time."

And I, for one, don't buy into your pet theory of all the damage the Jews have wrought on America. It's baloney, just like Bob's bluster. You have a theory about too much Jewish influence in America. You preach it. Some fringe people may buy into it but nobody else does. I sure as hell don't.

So, OK. Convince people if you can.

Yeah. Maybe I don't understand the obvious. But if it's the kind of obvious that leads to bigotry, I not only "don't understand it" in your sense, I reject it. Your kind of "obvious" is not yet bigotry (so far, in my view), but I am getting more and more a feeling you wouldn't mind if it did wind up there.

You're also referring to me in the third person.

Cute. You're playing mind games.

You are better than that, especially when you are productive.

But I don't expect you to understand that when hatred has your soul (and kills the beautiful in your mind).

OL, is not a place of hatred. If it's hatred you want to preach, take it to your site or somewhere else. We have other stuff to do around here like discuss topics where intelligence matters.

Michael

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