Vicarious


Serapis Bey

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Mystical? Malevolent? Reductionistic? Anti-Life? Perspicacious? What's your take?

WTF???????????????????????

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I think it's a creative exploration of what Objectivists would call "second-handedness" or "social metaphysics." But I also think that most Objectivists won't like it and will rate it as garbage, not because they disagree with its content, but because, ironically, they won't take the time to consider its content, but will instantly dismiss it because it feels like something that Rand would dismiss.

J

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Would an Objectivist guess what other people would expect Ayn Rand to think?

I was impressed at first because I thought that this was Brad Thun's (Serapis Bey's) own work. Then, I scrolled down the comments and realized that this video was created for a performing rock band called "Tool." It still is impressive graphics, but I failed to understand anything profound or disturbing. It was just entertaining as far as it went, like a TV commercial.

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The music had some interesting rhythmic patterns. I heard a lot of 5/4 stuff, but that alternated with other patterns I couldn't catch on one hearing.

It was better than I expected. I admit, my expectations were not too high going in. I was expecting a poorly-mixed garbled mess (not from any familiarity with Tool--this was the first time I heard them--but more from the taunting nature of the opening post).

For my own musical taste, it didn't move me, except a little in the mysterious non-rhythmic parts at the beginning and end, and in the rhythmic intro immediately following the opening slow part. I started going into it, losing myself in the primitive throbbing and getting on a roll to see where it would take me, but then the thing changed and petered out with boilerplate cliché-stuff.

Oh well...

So I give this song a so-so. Nothing I would want to hear again, but nothing I would avoid. Typical ba-da-bee ba-da-boom of the style--what would you call it, progressive punk?

As to the video, Eye-yi, Captain. I guess the "eyes" have it.

Let's keep an "eye" out for the next vicarious thrill.

:)

Michael

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Yes, the audio on this particular video was horrid. I suspect the uploader didn't understand proper compression protocols. Here is a better version, with much improved audio, for those interested:

Mike, Tool has been described (accurately, to my mind) as "avant-metal". Nothing else quite like them, I have to say. Many critics have cited Tool, along with Radiohead, as the "Pink Floyd of our generation" (Gen-X, that is), albeit upgraded and modified to reflect the benighted time in history we now live in. Not exactly Twiddlediwink music.

Here's a quite interesting fanvid for the song "Lateralus". It was made as a school project, but went viral. I think it gives a good taste of the general Tool "ethos."

The vocals in "Vicarious" are typically obscure, but the lyrics might serve to inform the images in the video. I think they suggest something more "disturbing" (MEM) than Jonathan's reasonable reference to "social metaphysics"

Eye on the TV
'cause tragedy thrills me
Whatever flavour
It happens to be

Like - "Killed by the husband"
"Drowned by the ocean"
"Shot by his own son"
"She used the poison in his tea
And kissed him goodbye"
That's my kind of story
It's no fun 'til someone dies

Don't look at me like
I am a monster
Frown out your one face
But with the other
Stare like a junkie
Into the TV
Stare like a zombie
While the mother
Holds her child
Watches him die
Hands to the sky crying,
"Why, oh why?"


'cause I need to watch things die
From a distance

Vicariously I, live while the whole world dies
You all need it too, don't lie

Why can't we just admit it?
Why can't we just admit it?

We won't give pause until the blood is flowing
Neither the brave nor bold
Nor writers of stories told

We won't give pause until the blood is flowing

I need to watch things die
From a good safe distance

Vicariously I, live while the whole world dies
You all feel the same so
Why can't we just admit it?

Blood like rain come down
Drawn on grave and ground

Part vampire
Part warrior
Carnivore and voyeur
Stare at the transmittal
Sing to the death rattle

La la la la la la la Lie
x4


Credulous at best, your desire to believe in angels in the hearts of men.
Pull your head on out your hippy haze and give a listen.
I shouldn't have to say it all again.
The universe is hostile, so impersonal

Devour to survive.
So it is, so it's always been.


We all feed on tragedy
It's like blood to a vampire

Vicariously I, live while the whole world dies
Much better you than I

BTW, for anyone intrigued by the "Hall of Faces" CGI in the video: that was the work of artist Alex Grey, who frequently works with Tool on the visual side of things. His work is utterly fascinating, albeit psychedelic. I wonder what the Objectivists here would think of it?

http://alexgrey.com/

Thanks,

Serapis "not Brad Trune" Bey

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I thought that this was Brad Thun's (Serapis Bey's) own work.

Where'd that name come from? Nah, he's got his real first name on his profile. If he was gonna fake it, he'd probably pick Michael Hunt.

then the thing changed and petered out with boilerplate cliché-stuff.

Welcome to his shitlist. Or maybe not, now that he's read Perigo's Music of the Gods!
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Serapsis, you would probably enjoy this:

They also have heavier stuff, if that's part of what you like about Tool.

Here's a metal band that's extremely technical and heavily inspired by classical music.

Just a warning, there is screaming in this video, closer to the end, and I did pick a slightly more accessible song.

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Serapsis, you would probably enjoy this:

Ah! Another Oceansize fan. Yes indeed, I became a fan of theirs upon first hearing. Defintely Tool influenced, but in a unique way that stands apart from many other copycats. I have to say Oceansize was the last band I got really excited about. They're younger guys, and so didn't quite approximate the gravitas of the seasoned vets in Tool, but they had a really powerful, unique sound. The last album was a bit of a disappointment, though.

Your second video didn't do anything for me. It sounds like something I would have loved when I was younger, but that kind of stuff sounds wankish to me now. Just didn't move me on an emotional level whatsoever.

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Yeah, I pretty much just listen to them for the technical aspect, which they are pretty glorious about.

I have been listening to mainly electronic music recently... there's just way more that can be done with it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yGo_JMKRiDY

And here's a guy who composes in mainly 7/4.

That album is inspired by Hungarian music--the guy actually went to live their for a while and learn violin.

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Calvin, I'm somewhat familiar with Ventian Snares. I enjoyed that.

The other one was pleasant enough, I suppose, but did not challenge me in any way. I'm surprised you like it. What about it grabs you?

I have been listening to mainly electronic music recently... there's just way more that can be done with it.

Funny, I've been having similar thoughts. Not that it is an inherently superior medium, but that never before in history has your average individual had so much opportunity to sculpt sounds on his own, without the cooperation (and headache) of others.

I listened to electronic music back in the late 90's. I was a fan of the "IDM" genre. I don't listen as much, but mu-ziq left an impression of where the style can go. The amount of detail these musicians apply to their computer editing is no less impressive than what a "real" musician does with his instrument. Sure, electronic music will always be defined by loop and sequencers and such, but these guys were splicing, dicing, quantizing, enveloping, folding sounds back on themselves, etc.

Ever heard a percussion instrument as a lead voice? I'm not sure what "sense of life" this piece conveys (perhaps the joy a child feels in smashing his mothers pots and pans together), but whatever the case, I'm blown away:

If one were able to stick a nanomicrophone into the LHC, I imagine this might be the soundtrack.

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What I liked about Burial off the bat was his ability to highlight a simple two-step drum pattern, and his vocal manipulation. Now what I like about him is mostly his ambitious composition choices and transitions. He has also always added a lot of subtle noise effects that give the repetitive beats some sense of progression; while often eerie, I don't think it adds a sense of malevolence anymore than a hero's struggle in a romantic novel. It doesn't really "challenge" me, no, but walking through the city at night is completely different while listening to Burial on good headphones.

Anyway, that mu-ziq track was great--I'm assuming Aphex Twin was inspired by him, who I really enjoy.

Intellectually challenging and emotionally moving... I guess those are everybody's criteria for music, if you add "enough" to the end of each.

Here's a couple others you may not have heard of that are hopefully challenging enough.


And if you like that one, you should look into T.R.A.M. as well as Animals As Leaders (intrumental prog-metal).

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Mystical? Malevolent? Reductionistic? Anti-Life? Perspicacious? What's your take?

Yucch! Ugly!

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Calvin, those were nice selections. I was not familiar with any of them. My impressions:

Floating Points was nice technical ambient. I found the off-kilter rhythm engaging at first, but it became a tad irritating after a while for not resolving to something more pleasant.

swod was similarly pleasing in an ambient sort of way. It reminds me of something I would have loved when I was younger. I found it induced a state of self-reflection in me. But, it went on a bit too long with no development to keep me interested. I can see it really "hitting the spot" after a glass of wine and a toke or two of the sweet leaf, however.

Trioscapes was a blast. I would absolutely love to see a band like this live in a small club, no doubt about it. Very Zappaesque, but without the needless noodling. Strangely enough however, I would never write music like that today if I were to sit down an create art. Not quite sure why that is. (The bassist had a nice phat tone, though)

But my favorite without question was the Samuel Jackson 5. I really dug that track. Will definitely be looking into their other stuff. To me, they hit that "sweet spot" which straddles both natural, gritty analog instrumentation and synthetic atmospherics. To my ears, THAT is "progressive music", not playing a million notes per second, or repetitous classical scales (which you seemingly averred in your appreciation of Human Abstract). As you say:

Intellectually challenging and emotionally moving... I guess those are everybody's criteria for music, if you add "enough" to the end of each.

Yes, but I would clarify that the "intellectually challenging" needn't imply "technical playing" or somesuch. For me, "intellectually challenging" has as much to do with arrangement and the textural sculpting of sound...the manipulation of perception. A band I discovered recently which hits that "sweet spot" for ME, is The Life And Times. They are similar to Oceansize, without the Tool-ish heavyness. A bit more accessible:

Another (yet again underrated) band which has impressed me is Doves. They too find a nice balance between traditional rock structures while introducing more "progressive" sounds and features. Somewhat psychedelic in spots, but they still rock with their feet on the ground. It's hard to find a representative track, since their style can vary so wildly even between tracks of the same album. Here's a good one:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x6e-cbY7YP4

If I had to characterize the general "sense of life" of their music, it would have to be "nostalgia", or "wistfullness" or "longing". Which makes me wonder: what does the Objectivist aesthetic theory have to say about such things? Is art which reflects the sense of "nostalgia" or "wistfullness" Objectively """correct"""?

Anyway, that mu-ziq track was great--I'm assuming Aphex Twin was inspired by him, who I really enjoy.

Glad you enjoyed it. I believe he and Aphex Twin were contemporaneous during that period. Not sure who influenced who, although from what I can tell, they both have their own distinct styles. I never really got too deeply into AT, even though I appreciated his technical mastery (he truly is one of the "geniuses" of that style of music -- a real Roarkish "maverick") He was always a little too strident and insistent for my tastes, but now that I think about it, I ireally ought to give him another chance. i DO know that he also had an incredibly developed ambient side when not skittering over his drum sequencers. One of my favorite pieces of music is by him -- the track "Rhubarb". Who could ever imagine that a mere 4 or 5 chords repeated over and over could be so immensely evocative?

Here's another aesthetic question which art like this makes me ponder: Could this piece have the incredible power it does if one were to arrange it for a traditional orchestra? In other words, does the magic of the music reside in the notes? Or does the unique texture and *sound* of the synthesizers elevate something simple to something sublime? I think this is an important question, because if my hunch is correct, it would mean the tradition of 'serious" music being played always by the same collection of instruments is anachronistic and regressive. Could new frontiers for music be found in technology and not necessarily new (if that is even possible) combinations of the same 12 notes?

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What's the best drug to take for watching this stuff?

--Brant

Oh come on Brant. I have the feeling you know exactly which "varietals" pair with the course offered up in this thread.

As it happens, while I was skimming YouTube for the song posted originally in this thread, I came across another fan-made video for one of Tool's classic songs. And I have to say, it is quite something. Probably the best of its type. Whoever made it is quite obviously a serious Tool fan, and someone who knows what it like to be...ah..."Experienced" Have you ever been "experienced"? After watching this video, you will be. I've never seen images put to music which so closely resembles what the experience of synesthesia is like -- the way the feedback from the music informs perception, where both the abstract content of the lyrics and the tempo and visceral feeling of the raw sound coalesce into a single point to offer a representation of the who experience. I'm sure some reading will experience the shock of recognition. I'm also quite sure Jimi Hendrix is eating his heart out at this very moment (watch in 720p, fullscreen, natch):

(various Bill Hicks samples)

Dreaming of that face again.

It's bright and blue and shimmering.

Grinning wide

And comforting me with it's three warm and wild eyes.

On my back and tumbling

Down that hole and back again

Rising up

And wiping the webs and the dew from my withered eye.

In... Out... In... Out... In... Out...

A child's rhyme stuck in my head.

Saying that life is but a dream.

I've spent so many years in question

to find I've known this all along.

"So good to see you.

I've missed you so much.

So glad it's over.

I've missed you so much

Came out to watch you play.

Why are you running?"

Shrouding all the ground around me

Is this holy crow above me?

Black as holes within a memory

And blue as our new second sun.

I stick my hand into the shadow

To pull the pieces from the sand.

Which I attempt to reassemble

To see just who I might have been.

I do not recognize the vessel,

But the eyes seem so familiar.

Like phosphorescent desert buttons

Singing one familiar song...

"So good to see you.

I've missed you so much.

So glad it's over.

I've missed you so much.

Came out to watch you play.

Why are you running away?"

Prying open my third eye.

So good to see you once again.

I thought that you were hiding.

And you thought that I had run away.

Chasing the tail of dogma.

I opened my eye and there we were.

So good to see you once again

I thought that you were hiding from me.

And you thought that I had run away.

Chasing a trail of smoke and reason.

PRYING OPEN MY THIRD EYE

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Mystical? Malevolent? Reductionistic? Anti-Life? Perspicacious? What's your take?

What is that crap about, anyway?

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Ba'al, you're naturally funny, you know that?

Serapsis: Now it embeds the video if you just post the link, but if that's not working for you, for some reason, you can click the Special BBCode button (top, 3rd from the left) and select "Media" and paste the URL in the box that says Media URL.

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I'm not a fan of Tool, if that helps explain my own musical taste. I liked the two tracks you posted more than I like Tool, but I still didn't find it ambitious enough, I think.

I believe that there is more to music than which notes are played, as you brought up at the end your post with the Doves and The Life and Times clips. I don't know if you've heard this AT track, but here's a noise that depends on more than the tone.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AWW68sPxcpM

The technical knowledge involved in getting an electronic noise to sound right amazes me.

Oh, and I assume you are a fan of Godspeed You! Black Emperor, here's something inspired by them you might enjoy:

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I'm not a fan of Tool, if that helps explain my own musical taste. I liked the two tracks you posted more than I like Tool, but I still didn't find it ambitious enough, I think.

I hear you. Those two bands trend towards the more "conventional" or "accessible" side of things. But I would caution against an unwarranted emphasis on "ambitiousness". That impulse can sometimes be a source of self-indulgent effluvia. Even though I love a fine steak, sometimes a greasy burger is just what the doctor ordered. But I have a character flaw that attempts to "have it all" at once -- perhaps it's better to render unto pop what is pop, and to progressive what is progressive. In any event, I'm all to familar with seeking "ambitiousness" for its own sake. That's an impulse one would be wise to be cognizant of.

I believe that there is more to music than which notes are played, as you brought up at the end your post with the Doves and The Life and Times clips. I don't know if you've heard this AT track, but here's a noise that depends on more than the tone.

No, I had not heard it. Very cool. Just one more nudge for me to give his work another chance. Richard D. James (AT) is quite a character. Very difficult to draw a bead on him. Some of his stuff is sublime, but then he also has UGLY UGLY output like the video for "Windowlicker". I'm not quite an Objectivist, but it is art like that which makes me sympathetic to some of the Oist hyperbole about "malevolent", "hatred of the good for being the good", Tooheyian "veneration of the ugly to destroy the beautiful", etc. Of course, I won't let such judgements sway me from giving him a fair shake.

Somewhat in the middle of that divide, here is the song "Milkman". I post this for Ninth Doctor's sake -- I think he'll get a kick out of it:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cBlZz0aui6g

This one is pretty neat from a technical standpoint (the interesting part starts around 3 minutes in):

The technical knowledge involved in getting an electronic noise to sound right amazes me.

100%. I recently bought a MIDI controller for my computer to try my hand at electronic composition. Just for piddling around. It immediately became apparent how steep the learning curve is on this sort of stuff.

Oh, and I assume you are a fan of Godspeed You! Black Emperor, here's something inspired by them you might enjoy:

Actually, I'm not that much of a fan of GY!BE. I find them to be too dreary and dirge-like. And I say this as someone who has a taste for "dark" music like Tool. Tool at least has fire in the belly. GY!BE just sounds defeated and deflated to me. But I recognize their talent, and they do have some outstanding tracks. The sliver of their output that I enjoy can be found more consistently in, say, Sigur Ros. Many of the songs I've posted are my own idiosyncratic favorites, but I think Sigur Ros is very "Objectivist-benevolent-sense-of-life" that some here would enjoy:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zr_MJAOyOeU

(Incidentally, I can't recommend their """concert"" DVD Heima enough. High praise for that one. I own about 60-70 concert DVD's of various acts, and "Heima" is truly unique. The presentation is just so perfect for that band, and is a great experience. Highly recommended)

I realize you don't like Tool (wtf is wrong with you), but just for shits and giggles, here's a sample of one of my recent favorites, Meshuggah. I'm not a fan of metal in general (except for standouts like Tool), but these guys are doing something unique to the genre -- their style of highly intricate rhythms influenced Tool on their last record. Try and get past the vocals and listen to the ferocious rhythm section -- so tight and precise. That's enough "intellectual stimulation" for me -- the rest of it a good satisfying punch to the gut. I think it's fair to say Meshuggah are not on Lindsay Perigo's top ten list. All I know is that listening to them feels like mainlining pure adrenaline. \m/

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Mystical? Malevolent? Reductionistic? Anti-Life? Perspicacious? What's your take?

What is that crap about, anyway?

Bob, try ingesting a few hundred micrograms -- give or take -- of LSD, and all will be revealed ;)

[sorry for the pithy response -- it's been a long day. But in the tiniest nutshell possible: Our concepts of life vs. death draw artificial lines between the two. But these are just conceptual categories created by the mind. In reality, the Life Process and Death Process are inextricably bound together in a unified organic whole. That's how it's been since the beginning, and will continue to be (for the forseeable future, anyway). Life (which involves the consumption/killing of other resources, i.e., living things) demands it, and this can sometimes apply to mental processes as well]

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