Homeschooling and Socialization

[caroljane]

Many Objectivists are drawn to Rand in their teenage years, when they become disenchanted, to say the least, with their school experience and most of their classmates. Some of them go on to homeschool their own children, based on their educational and philosophical values. The object is to provide the child a superior education compared with that available in the public school system.

At the same time, of course, they provide the child with an individualist upbringing apart from the pack mentality of their schoolgoing cohort.

I'm not aware of any studies on how these children fare in adult life, but it's a very interesting subject to me. I will say straight out that I would have hated to be homeschooled, though likely not as much as my parents would have hated it. As an only child my entire social life and lifelong friends came from going to school, and the feeling of belonging to a group was very important to me. The continual emotional learning from interacting with others in my own agegroup, was as important as the basic (pretty good) education I got.

Anyone have any experience or thoughts in this area?

[kiaer.ts]

I had an excellent public school education, and actually found college less challenging and rewarding than honors classes in high school. I also have found that learning how to deal with irrational behavior from people in junior high served me well as an adult.

[william.scherk]

Anyone have any experience or thoughts in this area?

On the old SOLO (now RoR) site, there was extensive discussion of non-schooling and homeschooling. One of the coolest folks there and one who was determined to non-school her child was Kelly Elmore.

Kelly runs a blog called (by memory) Reepicheep's Coracle, and is part of a network of home-school Objectivists sometimes featured on Diana Hsieh's site. I read at Kelly's site to see how she manages the self-directed learning style of her daughter and how she manages herself and her expectations. She also has regular readers who also home/non-school or otherwise use Objectivish principles in child-rearing -- and who exchange 'war stories' with each other. I suggest dropping in there for a gander to familiarize yourself with the kinds of things these parents do.

Sometimes it seems that many Objectivists are childless, but it could be that the folks who post online are either too old or too young to discuss home-schooling except theoretically.

One thing I noticed about the homeschool/non-school parents is that at some point they have to deal with a self-directed child's decision to go to 'normal school.' And of course, in most if not all states, a parent has to effectively lie or evade state intrusion to 'prove' that a child is learning, or achieving benchmarks.

I have a lot of admiration for those parents who home-school, but wonder at some of the crankish 'non-schoolers' in the mix. The desire to step completely away from initiating force on the child leads to fears that "my child is not reading/achieving/progressing" and of course, learning disabilities of any kind add an extra layer of guilt. If a child turns out to be illiterate or unsocialized through amateur experimentation, what then? Kelly Elmore seems to be doing a great job, but has put aside her earlier 'purist' crankery.

[studiodekadent]

daunce lynam,

As an only child myself, I must say my experience is strongly different to yours.

I found my "social life" at high school to be little more than a process of being repeatedly thrown to the wolves. A bunch of unevolved, snivelling little pack animals that proceeded to brutalize me for the crime of thinking for myself rather than "fitting in." Of course, my high school (which was private rather than public) encouraged this pack-mentality with its obsessive focus on sporting achievements and self-sacrifice in the name of the "school community" (honestly, I think pack-mentality amongst children is primarily a product of being placed in an heirarchial, regimented environment like High School rather than something endogenous to the child, but that's another topic).

I am only being slightly hyperbolic. My high school's philosophy was literally, on every level, basically the opposite of Objectivism (it was a religious school, albiet Episcopalian so hence diet-religious, but it was founded by a priest).

I should add, I wasn't an Objectivist when I was in high school. I only started becoming an Objectivist during my first year of College. Naturally, Rand's "The Comprachicos" struck me as in many respects very close to my own experiences.

I'm not sure I'd say I wish I were home schooled. I certainly wish, however, that the education system were dominated by Montessori rather than a mixture of religionist and progressive pedagogy.

[Xray]

I'm no advocate of homeschooling, and I'm not saying this because I work as teacher in public education. For school is more than learning about subjects - it is also about socializing with peers and preparing for life in the outside world.

But I'm all for reforming schools, for making them a better place where children can thrive under the guidance of committed teachers who encourage them to dig into their own potential, to stand up to bullies, to convey to them that learning is a lifelong adventure, and what a privilege it is to grow up in an environment where they can learn at all.

We all know how a committed teacher can spark pupils' interest in subjects, an interest which can last a lifetime, and it is those committed teachers we often remember in gratitude as long as we live. We also remember those teachers who appreciate us, even we are not good in the subjects they teach. I still think fondly of my math teacher who never made a disparaging remark about me although I struggled hard with math. Instead he encouraged me not to give up.

We also remember the abominable teachers too of course. Those unempathetic, pegagocically incompetent types who ought to have been been removed from their jobs.

On the other hand, making the experience of 'surviving' those terrible types without being damaged permanently can also boost one's self-esteem.

Life is no smooth sailing where you can expect to be pampered. Later, one is going to deal with difficult people on the job as well.

As for being homeschooled by Mom and Dad, this is another issue altogether. Imo the strong emotional bond between parent and child can be a hindrance here.

I don't have too good memories of sitting down with my daughter trying to help her in Latin. Her father tried to help her in math, and since they resemble each other in temperament, (both are emotional and tend to be impatient), it often ended in arguing which consumed a lot of energy.

Although I'm a fairly patient person, homeschooling is definitely not my cup of tea.

Also, how is it possible to homeschool one's children if one has a fulltime job?

But even if I could afford it financially, I would not find the thought of staying home to school my children appealing at all. I would get the feeling of both me and the child 'stewing in our own juice' too much.

I loved going to elementary school as a kid, although it was in a pretty tough neighborhood where quite a few difficult children sat in class who posed a challenge to the teachers.

I developed good friendships in school which would not have happened if I had been homeschooled. My parents would probably have shuddered anyway at the suggestion of homeschooling their four kids.

I may be prejudiced here, but I tend to connote homeschooling parents with either being overly ambitious or somewhat 'sectarian' types tending to seclude themselves in their own ideological communities.

But like I said, it may all be prejudice on my part, for I personally don't know anyone who has been homeschooled (homeschooling is rare here in Germany).

So if anyone of the posters here has been homeschooled, I'm interested in reading about their experiences.

Edited February 18, 2011 by Xray

[caroljane]

Everybody, thanks for the great comments so far.

wss. infact I had noticed Kellys blog and I got the reference, but the title was just too cutesy for me to want to investigate it. My biased mistake. Cheerful chirping I can conjure up for myself, thought I.

Studio, you are a real survivor. Private religious school can be the worst. And boarding school is to me a kind of perversion. You remove the child from real society and family and put him in a microcosm of arbitrary authority, where all his possible friends, role models and mentors are pre=chosen through narrow criteria. I know someone who was sent to such a place (Catholic yet)at age seven and never got over it.

Ted, we see to have had similar experiences. The high school Latin and poetry we had to memorize, and the algebra I still use fairly regularly, have served me better in life than university advanced literary criticism or Theory of Journalism spun out over whole semesters, which boiled down to "Great writing is subjective, time will tell" and "Afflict the comfortable, comfort the afflicted, spell the names right."

Xray, we are on a wavelength again. I would add that the social aspect of school is as important for the adults I teach as it is for children. Maybe more.

Obviously I am a strong proponent of public education, because the school is part of the public and the community. This is especially true in small towns, where all the parents know everything that goes on in school because the teachers and the cafeteria lady are their neighbours and relatives and friends or enemies. Kids are unable to spin their misdeeds, or escape the idea that there is a real world and someday they will have to do real work in it.

Edited February 18, 2011 by daunce lynam

[caroljane]

I wonder if vaguelyhumanoid or other teens who visit here have any thoughts on this.

Edited February 18, 2011 by daunce lynam

[caroljane]

There is also no overestimating the the brief gasps of freedom the parents get when the kids start school. Real freedom finally comes, as the truism goes, when the kids leave home and the dog dies.

Edited February 18, 2011 by daunce lynam

[Selene]

Carol:

I have excellent contacts in the home school community. More than half of those contacts are in the religious christian community.

I have strong opinions about home schooling. The anecdotal experiences that I know are all from successful home schooling families or groups so they will be of no use to you.

Gordon Neufeld - Thoughts on Home Schooled Children <<<<In this short article, I thought his take on one positive aspect of home schooling to be a thoughtful one.

This is from his website:

The Neufeld Institute

"Dr. Neufeld’s legacy is the meta theory of development he has constructed from joining the dots until a consistent picture emerged. His comprehensive model has evolved from years of synthesis and distillation. The result is an integrated developmental approach rooted in depth psychology, grounded in the developmental paradigm, saturated in attachment theory, congruent with current neurological research and honed by forty years of professional practice, parenting and personal reflection. In a world of fragmented knowledge, esoteric terminology, strategies divorced from their philosophical moorings, and a smorgasbord approach to treatment, Dr. Neufeld’s approach is a breath of fresh air. His insight model provides a refreshing alternative to the current cognitive behavioral fare, as well as to the medical 'disorder' approach. Dr. Neufeld’s approach has clear and practical implications for practice and treatment, regardless of one's arena of involvement - child, adolescent, adult, marital or family."

Adam

[caroljane]

Carol:

I have excellent contacts in the home school community. More than half of those contacts are in the religious christian community.

I have strong opinions about home schooling. The anecdotal experiences that I know are all from successful home schooling families or groups so they will be of no use to you.

Adam

Adam,it's not like you to snark at me unprovoked! Just because I would not have liked to be homeschooled myself, and was not qualified to homeschool my own children (I could not even get them to do their homework), doesn't mean I don't know there are many examples of excellent results.

I am also aware that homeschooling was the norm in most sections of literate society, for most of history.

I don't believe in homework, acutally, but that's another topic.

Edited February 18, 2011 by daunce lynam

[Selene]

Carol:

I have excellent contacts in the home school community. More than half of those contacts are in the religious christian community.

I have strong opinions about home schooling. The anecdotal experiences that I know are all from successful home schooling families or groups so they will be of no use to you.

Adam

Adam,it's not like you to snark at me unprovoked! Just because I would not have liked to be homeschooled myself, and was not qualified to homeschool my own children (I could not even get them to do their homework), doesn't mean I don't know there are many examples of excellent results.

I am also aware that homeschooling was the norm in most sections of literate society, for most of history.

I don't believe in homework, acutally, but that's another topic.

Carol:

Where was there any "snarking" in my response? I was sharing.

Adam

[caroljane]

Carol:

I have excellent contacts in the home school community. More than half of those contacts are in the religious christian community.

I have strong opinions about home schooling. The anecdotal experiences that I know are all from successful home schooling families or groups so they will be of no use to you.

Adam

Adam,it's not like you to snark at me unprovoked! Just because I would not have liked to be homeschooled myself, and was not qualified to homeschool my own children (I could not even get them to do their homework), doesn't mean I don't know there are many examples of excellent results.

I am also aware that homeschooling was the norm in most sections of literate society, for most of history.

I don't believe in homework, acutally, but that's another topic.

Carol:

Where was there any "snarking" in my response? I was sharing.

Adam

You said that the positive examples you knew would"be of no interest to me" - I took this to mean you thought I have confirmation bias. Maybe I was oversensitive. I really would like to know of your impressions of these children and especially of their adult progress, if you have information.

Carol

always sharing too

[caroljane]

Studiodekadent,

You mentioned that you were an only child, and birth order, as a determining factor in individual psychology, is a fascinating subject to me. I try to read whatever studies come up and I have to say I agree with most of their findings. Also I have the ongoing observation of my 41 first cousins and myself as petri dishes.

One thing I think about myself is, I was always a sort of middle-aged child, and now I'm an old child, having skipped the inconvenient maturation most people have to go through. I never learned to fight or negotiate, at the appropriate age, for a place in a hierarchy. I never had to share, because whatever was going for a child was mine. I have always had an all-or-nothing emotionalism; if I wasn't loved unconditionally, totally, then I wasn't loved. Being liked was different, and easy, natural. Liking others was the same. I always felt self-conscious and noticed, not without reason. I am thinking myself back into my childhood consciousness here as best I can--sorry to be self-indulgent.

But these childhood self-perceptions and circumstances do determine our adulthood, I am sure. Growing up with just your parents, or with siblings too, makes a huge difference in how you turn out.

Am I right?

[Selene]

Salon is a pleasure to read most of the time.

Confessions of a home-schooler

"It's a Sunday night at the tail end of summer, and I've dragged two squawky kids out of the minivan and into a half-closed rest stop on the Garden State Parkway in search of non-dreadful dinner options. Leslie, their mother, is catching some precious zone-out time in the car. After we sit down with our unadorned burger and fries, I notice the woman at the next table, the one who's making eye contact and smiling. "Are they twins?" she asks. "How wonderful!" Then she talks to Nini and Desmond: "Wow, you guys are 5. So big! Are you starting kindergarten soon?"

Here's where the fun starts.

My son and daughter regard me in grave silence, faces stuffed with processed meat and fried potato product. They field this question themselves fairly often, but they're going to let me take it this time. For an insane split second, I consider a full-on lie, just some total invention about where and when they're going to school this fall. Instead, I take a swig of fizzy fountain Pepsi and bite the bullet: "Actually, we're home schooling.""

Adam

[caroljane]

Salon is a pleasure to read most of the time.

Confessions of a home-schooler

"It's a Sunday night at the tail end of summer, and I've dragged two squawky kids out of the minivan and into a half-closed rest stop on the Garden State Parkway in search of non-dreadful dinner options. Leslie, their mother, is catching some precious zone-out time in the car. After we sit down with our unadorned burger and fries, I notice the woman at the next table, the one who's making eye contact and smiling. "Are they twins?" she asks. "How wonderful!" Then she talks to Nini and Desmond: "Wow, you guys are 5. So big! Are you starting kindergarten soon?"

Here's where the fun starts.

My son and daughter regard me in grave silence, faces stuffed with processed meat and fried potato product. They field this question themselves fairly often, but they're going to let me take it this time. For an insane split second, I consider a full-on lie, just some total invention about where and when they're going to school this fall. Instead, I take a swig of fizzy fountain Pepsi and bite the bullet: "Actually, we're home schooling.""

Adam

Adam, I'd still be interested in your observations of the homeschooled children you have known or known of.

I think you mentioned that you, like me and studio, are an only child. As mentioned in my previous post I am also very intrigued by the studies on how birth order affects one's adult life, and would like to invite any interested OLers to offer their thoughts on this. Not the research! unless you happen to be familiar with it. Just if you think being an eldest, middle, youngest etc had an effect on you or those you know.

Carol

spoiled rotten

fun fact: both my parents were third-borns and so was my husband, and my closest cousin (more like a sister)in a family of 10.. She married a third-born from a family of 11. We're not even Catholics. They have to hold family parties in the arena.

Edited February 23, 2011 by daunce lynam

[studiodekadent]

Daunce,

First, thanks for your support re: high school. I'll specify that my school wasn't highly religious in any fundamentalist sense. It was run by the Anglican Church of Australia, which (outside of Sydney) is relatively liberal theologically. Indeed, I was the only person that actually listened during Religion classes; I think that's why I'm such an atheist (I heard what they were saying and it was absolutely monstrously stupid).

Regarding your observations as to birth order, I agree that birth order (and family structure generally) will obviously effect individual psychology. However, what little I have read about only children has a tendency to pathologize only children ("Only Child SYNDROME"), damn us for being too 'selfish' and insufficiently 'social' or some other crap like that. And of course, call only children "immature" or something. Mature by what standard? I have never seen a definition of "mature" that isn't some blatantly obvious attempt by an authority figure to control a defiant subject by simply calling the subject names.

Finally, I apologize for the slow reply. I was out of the country for five days.

Edited February 27, 2011 by studiodekadent

[caroljane]

Daunce,

First, thanks for your support re: high school. I'll specify that my school wasn't highly religious in any fundamentalist sense. It was run by the Anglican Church of Australia, which (outside of Sydney) is relatively liberal theologically. Indeed, I was the only person that actually listened during Religion classes; I think that's why I'm such an atheist (I heard what they were saying and it was absolutely monstrously stupid).

Regarding your observations as to birth order, I agree that birth order (and family structure generally) will obviously effect individual psychology. However, what little I have read about only children has a tendency to pathologize only children ("Only Child SYNDROME"), damn us for being too 'selfish' and insufficiently 'social' or some other crap like that. And of course, call only children "immature" or something. Mature by what standard? I have never seen a definition of "mature" that isn't some blatantly obvious attempt by an authority figure to control a defiant subject by simply calling the subject names.

Finally, I apologize for the slow reply. I was out of the country for five days.

I think that a lot of the pathologizing of onlies came from the era when large families were the norm, and an only child was a rarity. There was only one other only in my age group in my small town of around 4000 people. Now they are as common as kids with siblings. And in China we have a whole countryful to look at.

One of my students immigrated here because of the only-child policy. They had a daughter and wanted another child, hoping for a boy. Four months after their arrival, his wife had triplet girls. Four children under the age of three. He was always falling asleep in class.

Still no response from the home-schooled community. I guess we'll just have to wait till Suri Cruise grows up.

[anthony]

Daunce,

First, thanks for your support re: high school. I'll specify that my school wasn't highly religious in any fundamentalist sense. It was run by the Anglican Church of Australia, which (outside of Sydney) is relatively liberal theologically. Indeed, I was the only person that actually listened during Religion classes; I think that's why I'm such an atheist (I heard what they were saying and it was absolutely monstrously stupid).

SD,

A little bit of synchronicity.

Apart from my school being an ex-monastery 'bush boarding school', in the Matopas in Zimbabwe (Rhodesia, then).

All ex-pat English teachers, with the English GCE system, and good old Anglican values. I'm guessing you know the drill - chapel every morning, but generally very gentle religious instruction.

I have a sneaking regard for the benign Church of England to this day!

Dad thought this was the way a Brit boy (and only child) should be educated, so I was placed there at 12, and apart from running away once, I saw it through til 'A Levels' 6 years later. I never enjoyed it, and the separation almost broke my poor Mum's heart.

Tony

[Vanlandingham]

duance,

I have experienced both worlds. I was homeschooled by my mother as a child, from approximately age 3 through 7. My father worked full-time, but he would still teach me every moment he had. Eventually, my mother wanted to resume working, and my parents decided it would be best for me to socialize in public school. Honestly, I feel that public school was not very effective for me. I didn't learn much at all with regards to mathematics or English until I entered high school (and maybe a while after I entered). There were some gaps in history, and various parts of science that kept me interested in school though. I excelled throughout my public education, staying at the top of my class. (With the exception of 7th grade, when I had a rebellious phase and got 2 Cs.)

I never had a problem socializing with others, partly due to my family and community environment. I'm the oldest of 4 children, so I always had to be interacting. Furthermore, while I was home-schooled, I lived in family-oriented military housing, so there were always kids playing outside, and I was always right there with them. I was also a member of several local activities, starting with T-ball, soccer, and wrestling.

While I feel homeschooling was a very positive force in my success, I don't feel that additional years of homeschooling would have been very beneficial. My mother was only a high school graduate, and while she was at the top of her class, there wasn't much more she could comfortably teach me. No matter though, she taught me all I needed to know. She taught me the desire for learning. I know people have had various levels of success with homeschooling. I'm not sure if I will homeschool my children. (when/if I have them) If anyone has any questions on my background or other experiences, please do ask.

Van

[caroljane]

duance,

I have experienced both worlds. I was homeschooled by my mother as a child, from approximately age 3 through 7. My father worked full-time, but he would still teach me every moment he had. Eventually, my mother wanted to resume working, and my parents decided it would be best for me to socialize in public school. Honestly, I feel that public school was not very effective for me. I didn't learn much at all with regards to mathematics or English until I entered high school (and maybe a while after I entered). There were some gaps in history, and various parts of science that kept me interested in school though. I excelled throughout my public education, staying at the top of my class. (With the exception of 7th grade, when I had a rebellious phase and got 2 Cs.)

I never had a problem socializing with others, partly due to my family and community environment. I'm the oldest of 4 children, so I always had to be interacting. Furthermore, while I was home-schooled, I lived in family-oriented military housing, so there were always kids playing outside, and I was always right there with them. I was also a member of several local activities, starting with T-ball, soccer, and wrestling.

While I feel homeschooling was a very positive force in my success, I don't feel that additional years of homeschooling would have been very beneficial. My mother was only a high school graduate, and while she was at the top of her class, there wasn't much more she could comfortably teach me. No matter though, she taught me all I needed to know. She taught me the desire for learning. I know people have had various levels of success with homeschooling. I'm not sure if I will homeschool my children. (when/if I have them) If anyone has any questions on my background or other experiences, please do ask.

Van

That's very interesting. I have just realized that I had your same experience in that I did not start school till age 7. I could have started at 6 (we had no kindergarten) but my mother wanted to keep me home the extra year. I was not schooled however except I learned to read from my storybooks and my father's tutorials from comic strips. There was an old one called "our Boarding House" featuring Major Hoople which was a great favourite. Also Brenda Starr who I wanted to grow up to be.

I enjoy "Army Wives" on TV and realize that it's pretty sugarcoated, but does it reflect your own experiences?

Glad to have you on OL.