Subjectivism vs. Objectivism, Benoit vs. Helfeld, Debate


jts

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Objectivist vs Subjectivist on the subject of whether reality is real. 1:22:30

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Streamed live on Jul 19, 2014

Subjectivism vs. Objectivism, Benoit vs. Helfeld, Debate: Subjectivism - reality exists simply because of agreement; there are no absolutes; two contradictory conclusions can both be true and 2+2 = 4 is not always true. Objectivism : reality is what it is independent of what anybody thinks or agrees ; there are absolutes; two contradictory conclusions cannot both be true, and 2+2 = 4 is always true.

1. Objectivism starts by identifying the fundamental axioms of all knowledge, and teasing out the implications and corollaries of these axioms. The starting point is existence exists. This means there is an existence, a universe, a reality. This is a fundamental self evident fact, that is given to us directly by sense perception. When we open our eyes, we see entities and these entities have identities, they have characteristics. They are in a certain way. Things are what they are, is the second fundamental axiom of all knowledge Thus everything that exists has an identity. To exist is to have an identity and to have an identity is to exist. These two axioms identify a fundamental fact from two different perspectives. A third metaphysical axiom is consciousness, i.e. the fact that we are aware of existence. We are conscious of a world out there. These three axioms can be summarized in the statement: There is something I am aware of.

2.Subjectivism violates these axioms or the corollaries of these actions. One of these corollaries is the primacy of existence. It means that existence comes first, and is independent of our consciousness . Thus, it sets the terms of what it is to know. To know is to know how existence is, how things are. The facts are independent of our knowledge of them, of our consciousness of them. This corollary identifies the proper relationship between existence and consciousness. The role of consciousness is to know reality/existence not to create it. As Francis Bacon put in many years ago, nature to be commanded, must be obeyed. If you want to do what is required for a good, happy, satisfied life you need to know reality/existence, you need to know how things are first and based on this knowledge, you can then identify the causes of effects you need to enact to live a good life.

3. Mike's subjectivist view that - reality exists simply because of agreement - is in conflict with and contradicts these basic axioms and corollaries of all knowledge. Reality exists independently of anybody's views or agreement, existence exists, and things are what they are independent of anybody's agreement or consciousness. If there is an agreement that the world is flat. It does not flatten out, it will be what it is, regardless of what anybody agrees or thinks. Your mind does not create reality. Reality exists independent of your knowledge of it. When you close your eyes and you cannot see the world it does not disappear it is still there. The subjectivist does not understand the relationship between his consciousness or mind on the one hand, and reality, or existence on the other. Reality, i.e., existence sets the terms and is it independent of your thinking. The role of your mind is to know reality. your mind can not change reality directly, whishing or hoping something is true doesn't make it true, it doesn't change reality.

4. Mike's subjectivist view that two contradictory conclusions can both be true violates the axiom that things are what they are. Thus, if you say a thing is in a certain way and you also say it is not in that way, in the same sense of the word referring to the same timeframe you are necessarily mistaken because you have contradicted yourself, which means you are denying the law of identity, i.e., that things are what they are. Put it negatively something is not what it isn't, it is what it is, which means it has certain characteristics and not all the characteristics. A characteristic is either on the list of all the characteristics of the entity or it isn't, it is either one of the characteristics of the entity or it's not. If you say it is on the list and it is not you have made a mistake because it either has the characteristic or it doesn't. It cannot both have the characteristic and not have the characteristic.

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I was going to message this gif to you, however, it won't "take" in the message window..

monkey-shaking-head-smiley-emoticon.gif

That is not related to this thread which I have not looked at yet.

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