The Exploitation of Trayvon Martin


George H. Smith

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"From what I've seen, the race issue was trumped up by lefties for political reasons, including an attack on "stand your ground" laws. I've been watching "Hardball" as I write this, and it included a segment on the need for greater gun control. The same is true of Al Sharpton's program earlier today."-Ghs

The race issue is trumped up by lefties for political reasons, true, The stand your ground laws enable racism ("Of course he would have killed me! He's not the same colour as me! ") just as early gun control laws enabled racism ("don't give him a gun! He's black - the worst kind - a free black!" These grotesque laws exist only because the sponsors want a gun in every pocket and a spare in every house. They should be attacked, and defeated.

The right to self defense is meaningless if people don't have the means to defend themselves. These "grotesque laws" as you call them provide the means. Very few people could successfully defend themselves against a 6 foot + angry 17 year old sitting on their chest pounding their head into the pavement.

I read he only weighed 140 lbs. The news stories don't add up right.

--Brant

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"From what I've seen, the race issue was trumped up by lefties for political reasons, including an attack on "stand your ground" laws. I've been watching "Hardball" as I write this, and it included a segment on the need for greater gun control. The same is true of Al Sharpton's program earlier today."-Ghs

The race issue is trumped up by lefties for political reasons, true, The stand your ground laws enable racism ("Of course he would have killed me! He's not the same colour as me! ") just as early gun control laws enabled racism ("don't give him a gun! He's black - the worst kind - a free black!" These grotesque laws exist only because the sponsors want a gun in every pocket and a spare in every house. They should be attacked, and defeated.

The right to self defense is meaningless if people don't have the means to defend themselves. These "grotesque laws" as you call them provide the means. Very few people could successfully defend themselves against a 6 foot + angry 17 year old sitting on their chest pounding their head into the pavement.

Very few would follow such a person, although told by a 911 operator not not to do so. Very few armed citizens would defend themselves, not by threatening an unarmed stranger with the gun,after being "attacked", but by killing him.

One report I read was by the mortician at the funeral home, who said there were no marks on Martin's body indicative of a fight, only the fatal bullet wound. Of course, autopsy photos when released will test the truth of his statement.

As to the wounds Zimmerman bore when he walked into the police station 40 minutes after the killing, we have his words as to what happened.

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"From what I've seen, the race issue was trumped up by lefties for political reasons, including an attack on "stand your ground" laws. I've been watching "Hardball" as I write this, and it included a segment on the need for greater gun control. The same is true of Al Sharpton's program earlier today."-Ghs The race issue is trumped up by lefties for political reasons, true, The stand your ground laws enable racism ("Of course he would have killed me! He's not the same colour as me! ") just as early gun control laws enabled racism ("don't give him a gun! He's black - the worst kind - a free black!" These grotesque laws exist only because the sponsors want a gun in every pocket and a spare in every house. They should be attacked, and defeated.
The right to self defense is meaningless if people don't have the means to defend themselves. These "grotesque laws" as you call them provide the means. Very few people could successfully defend themselves against a 6 foot + angry 17 year old sitting on their chest pounding their head into the pavement.
I read he only weighed 140 lbs. The news stories don't add up right. --Brant

I agree, and that's why I don't see any point in guessing what happened until the facts come out.

Do you happen to know whether there is any indication that Martin was shot at point-blank range? If so, this might indicate a struggle. I don't even know where the bullet entered Martin's body. Front? Back? Side? Head? Anyone know?

Ghs

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If Zimmerman was working as a member of community watch, it is not unreasonable that he would have trailed a suspicious person from a distance. There is nothing wrong with this per se. The only relevant consideration is what happened later. If Martin then approached him in a threatening manner, then Zimmerman's case of self-defense might be credible. And if Martin actually assaulted him physically and pounded his head against the ground, then Zimmerman has a very strong case. For all he knew, Martin might have beaten him to death, or at least inflicted serious injuries. Shooting someone in those circumstances in perfectly justified. You don't have to wait until the a guy is finished beating you up, in the hope that he won't injure you too badly, until you have a right to stop him with deadly force.

Ghs

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If Zimmerman was working as a member of community watch, it is not unreasonable that he would have trailed a suspicious person from a distance. There is nothing wrong with this per se. The only relevant consideration is what happened later. If Martin then approached him in a threatening manner, then Zimmerman's case of self-defense might be credible. And if Martin actually assaulted him physically and pounded his head against the ground, then Zimmerman has a very strong case. For all he knew, Martin might have beaten him to death, or at least inflicted serious injuries. Shooting someone in those circumstances in perfectly justified. You don't have to wait until the a guy is finished beating you up, in the hope that he won't injure you too badly, until you have a right to stop him with deadly force.

Ghs

I agree that he would have a strong case if these facts are established, yet I have not seen any confirmation that he was a formal member of a neighbourhood watch group, -- his calling police on seeing a "suspicious person" would seem to indicate that he was. Yet directly disobeying the instructions he got - not to follow - seems to indicate that he wasn't.

Of course we must wait for incontrovertible facts to be presented. But it would not be human, not to speculate from the facts we know, in such a strikingly tragic case.

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If Zimmerman was working as a member of community watch, it is not unreasonable that he would have trailed a suspicious person from a distance. There is nothing wrong with this per se. The only relevant consideration is what happened later. If Martin then approached him in a threatening manner, then Zimmerman's case of self-defense might be credible. And if Martin actually assaulted him physically and pounded his head against the ground, then Zimmerman has a very strong case. For all he knew, Martin might have beaten him to death, or at least inflicted serious injuries. Shooting someone in those circumstances in perfectly justified. You don't have to wait until the a guy is finished beating you up, in the hope that he won't injure you too badly, until you have a right to stop him with deadly force.

Ghs

I agree that he would have a strong case if these facts are established, yet I have not seen any confirmation that he was a formal member of a neighbourhood watch group, -- his calling police on seeing a "suspicious person" would seem to indicate that he was. Yet directly disobeying the instructions he got - not to follow - seems to indicate that he wasn't.

Of course we must wait for incontrovertible facts to be presented. But it would not be human, not to speculate from the facts we know, in such a strikingly tragic case.

Carol:

The call he made to 911 was to a civilian dispatcher and not a police officer.

Adam

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If Zimmerman was working as a member of community watch, it is not unreasonable that he would have trailed a suspicious person from a distance. There is nothing wrong with this per se. The only relevant consideration is what happened later. If Martin then approached him in a threatening manner, then Zimmerman's case of self-defense might be credible. And if Martin actually assaulted him physically and pounded his head against the ground, then Zimmerman has a very strong case. For all he knew, Martin might have beaten him to death, or at least inflicted serious injuries. Shooting someone in those circumstances in perfectly justified. You don't have to wait until the a guy is finished beating you up, in the hope that he won't injure you too badly, until you have a right to stop him with deadly force.

Ghs

I agree that he would have a strong case if these facts are established, yet I have not seen any confirmation that he was a formal member of a neighbourhood watch group, -- his calling police on seeing a "suspicious person" would seem to indicate that he was. Yet directly disobeying the instructions he got - not to follow - seems to indicate that he wasn't.

Of course we must wait for incontrovertible facts to be presented. But it would not be human, not to speculate from the facts we know, in such a strikingly tragic case.

Carol:

The call he made to 911 was to a civilian dispatcher and not a police officer.

Adam

Another thing: the police can take forever to respond to a call like this. I know this from personal experience.

Around three years ago, a white guy who lived in the house on the other side of my driveway got into a serious argument with a young black guy (who lived upstairs from me at the time) and several of his friends. The white guy was a truck driver who kept erratic hours, and the guys upstairs, most of whom were not even supposed to live there, would frequently hold raucous parties, even on weeknights, that lasted until 3 or 4 in the morning.

They would invite a bunch of people to these parties, and these inconsiderable dolts would park in the driveway, thereby blocking all other cars from entering or leaving. Well, the truck driver came home late at night, after a 3-day haul, only to find he couldn't pull into his place. He got out and stomped upstairs and told everyone to move their cars. I could hear loud voices, but everyone eventually came down.

The fireworks began when he told the guy who was actually renting the place not to let his friends block the driveway any more. (This was around midnight on a Tuesday.) I was standing on my porch with my dog, and as I saw five of these inebriated punks surround my neighbor, I noticed that one was holding a 2X4 that had picked up from a pile of lumber. I immediately called 911, explaining the situation and saying that I was certain a fight was about to start. I said, "You really need to get some officers over here right away, or someone might get seriously hurt."

10 minutes passed, as the argument continued, as the shouting got louder, and as racial epithets by the black guys got intense (honky, cracker, etc.) I then called 911 again. I was very emphatic. I said, "There are five drunk black guys here threatening to "beat the shit" out of a white guy. One of them is waving a 2X4 around. There is going to be a serious racial fight here. We need some cops over here, NOW!"

The response? "Sir, some officers will be there as soon as possible." I said, "This is a Tuesday night in Bloomington. How busy can they be?"

Another five minutes passed, after which the truck driver, standing in his own back yard, squared-off with one of the black guys. They stood nose-to-nose, and the white guy, who had not used a racial epithet before this, said, "Get out of my yard, nigger, and leave me alone." He then turned around and tried to walk away. As he reached his porch steps -- thud! -- he was hit, hard, on the side of his head with that 2x4.

As he feel to his knees, holding his head and with blood oozing between his fingers, the rest of the gang started kicking him. I ran across the driveway as I called 911 for the third time. I said, "Someone has been badly injured here; we need an ambulance." I then told everyone to "knock it off," that the cops were on the way, and that they better get "out of here" if they didn't want to go to jail. All of them took off, except the guy who actually lived upstairs.

The ambulance and cops arrived five minutes later (20 minutes after my initial call). The truck driver spent three days in the hospital and came home with a stitched and bandaged head. Two cops interviewed me and my upstairs neighbor. They didn't arrest anyone. When I asked why not (my upstairs neighbor was the one with the 2X4), an obnoxious punk of a female cop said to me, in a condescending manner, "Sir, your friend used the N-word. He should not have done that."

I replied: "So does that mean they had a right to split his skull open? Besides, they were using all kinds of racial slurs long before this happened. He tried to walk away, and he was struck from behind."

Nothing was ever done about this. Government efficiency and justice in action.

Ghs

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If Zimmerman was working as a member of community watch, it is not unreasonable that he would have trailed a suspicious person from a distance. There is nothing wrong with this per se. The only relevant consideration is what happened later. If Martin then approached him in a threatening manner, then Zimmerman's case of self-defense might be credible. And if Martin actually assaulted him physically and pounded his head against the ground, then Zimmerman has a very strong case. For all he knew, Martin might have beaten him to death, or at least inflicted serious injuries. Shooting someone in those circumstances in perfectly justified. You don't have to wait until the a guy is finished beating you up, in the hope that he won't injure you too badly, until you have a right to stop him with deadly force.

Ghs

I agree that he would have a strong case if these facts are established, yet I have not seen any confirmation that he was a formal member of a neighbourhood watch group, -- his calling police on seeing a "suspicious person" would seem to indicate that he was. Yet directly disobeying the instructions he got - not to follow - seems to indicate that he wasn't.

Of course we must wait for incontrovertible facts to be presented. But it would not be human, not to speculate from the facts we know, in such a strikingly tragic case.

Carol:

The call he made to 911 was to a civilian dispatcher and not a police officer.

Adam

Another thing: the police can take forever to respond to a call like this. I know this from personal experience.

Around three years ago, a white guy who lived in the house on the other side of my driveway got into a serious argument with a young black guy (who lived upstairs from me at the time) and several of his friends. The white guy was a truck driver who kept erratic hours, and the guys upstairs, most of whom were not even supposed to live there, would frequently hold raucous parties, even on weeknights, that lasted until 3 or 4 in the morning.

They would invite a bunch of people to these parties, and these inconsiderable dolts would park in the driveway, thereby blocking all other cars from entering or leaving. Well, the truck driver came home late at night, after a 3-day haul, only to find he couldn't pull into his place. He got out and stomped upstairs and told everyone to move their cars. I could hear loud voices, but everyone eventually came down.

The fireworks began when he told the guy who was actually renting the place not to let his friends block the driveway any more. (This was around midnight on a Tuesday.) I was standing on my porch with my dog, and as I saw five of these inebriated punks surround my neighbor, I noticed that one was holding a 2X4 that had picked up from a pile of lumber. I immediately called 911, explaining the situation and saying that I was certain a fight was about to start. I said, "You really need to get some officers over here right away, or someone might get seriously hurt."

10 minutes passed, as the argument continued, as the shouting got louder, and as racial epithets by the black guys got intense (honky, cracker, etc.) I then call 911 again. I was very emphatic. I said, "There are five drunk black guys here threatening to "beat the shit" out of a white guy. One of them is waving a 2X4 around. There is going to be a serious racial fight here. We need some cops over here, NOW!"

The response? "Sir, some officers will be there as soon as possible." I said, "This is a Tuesday night in Bloomington. How busy can they be?"

Another five minutes passed, after which the truck driver, standing in his own back yard, squared-off with one of the black guys. They stood nose-to-nose, and the white guy, who had not used a racial epithet before this, said, "Get out of my yard, nigger, and leave me alone." He then turned around and tried to walk away. As he reached his porch steps -- thud! -- he was hit, hard, on the side of his head with that 2x4.

As he feel to his knees, holding his head and with blood oozing between his fingers, the rest of the gang started kicking him. I ran across the driveway as I called 911 for the third time. I said, "Someone has been badly injured here; we need an ambulance." I then told everyone to "knock it off," that the cops were on the way, and that they better get "out of here" if they didn't want to go to jail. All of them took off, except the guy who actually lived upstairs.

The ambulance and cops arrived five minutes later (20 minutes after my initial call). The truck driver spent three days in the hospital and came home with a stitched and bandaged head. Two cops interviewed me and my upstairs neighbor. They didn't arrest anyone. When I asked why not (my upstairs neighbor was the one with the 2X4), an obnoxious punk of a female cop said to me, in a condescending manner, "Sir, your friend used the N-word. He should not have done that."

I replied: "So does that mean they had a right to split his skull open? Besides, they were calling him all kind of racial names long before this happened. He tried to walk away, and he was struck from behind."

Nothing was ever done about this. Government efficiency and justice in action.

Ghs

If Zimmerman was working as a member of community watch, it is not unreasonable that he would have trailed a suspicious person from a distance. There is nothing wrong with this per se. The only relevant consideration is what happened later. If Martin then approached him in a threatening manner, then Zimmerman's case of self-defense might be credible. And if Martin actually assaulted him physically and pounded his head against the ground, then Zimmerman has a very strong case. For all he knew, Martin might have beaten him to death, or at least inflicted serious injuries. Shooting someone in those circumstances in perfectly justified. You don't have to wait until the a guy is finished beating you up, in the hope that he won't injure you too badly, until you have a right to stop him with deadly force.

Ghs

I agree that he would have a strong case if these facts are established, yet I have not seen any confirmation that he was a formal member of a neighbourhood watch group, -- his calling police on seeing a "suspicious person" would seem to indicate that he was. Yet directly disobeying the instructions he got - not to follow - seems to indicate that he wasn't.

Of course we must wait for incontrovertible facts to be presented. But it would not be human, not to speculate from the facts we know, in such a strikingly tragic case.

Carol:

The call he made to 911 was to a civilian dispatcher and not a police officer.

Adam

Another thing: the police can take forever to respond to a call like this. I know this from personal experience.

Around three years ago, a white guy who lived in the house on the other side of my driveway got into a serious argument with a young black guy (who lived upstairs from me at the time) and several of his friends. The white guy was a truck driver who kept erratic hours, and the guys upstairs, most of whom were not even supposed to live there, would frequently hold raucous parties, even on weeknights, that lasted until 3 or 4 in the morning.

They would invite a bunch of people to these parties, and these inconsiderable dolts would park in the driveway, thereby blocking all other cars from entering or leaving. Well, the truck driver came home late at night, after a 3-day haul, only to find he couldn't pull into his place. He got out and stomped upstairs and told everyone to move their cars. I could hear loud voices, but everyone eventually came down.

The fireworks began when he told the guy who was actually renting the place not to let his friends block the driveway any more. (This was around midnight on a Tuesday.) I was standing on my porch with my dog, and as I saw five of these inebriated punks surround my neighbor, I noticed that one was holding a 2X4 that had picked up from a pile of lumber. I immediately called 911, explaining the situation and saying that I was certain a fight was about to start. I said, "You really need to get some officers over here right away, or someone might get seriously hurt."

10 minutes passed, as the argument continued, as the shouting got louder, and as racial epithets by the black guys got intense (honky, cracker, etc.) I then call 911 again. I was very emphatic. I said, "There are five drunk black guys here threatening to "beat the shit" out of a white guy. One of them is waving a 2X4 around. There is going to be a serious racial fight here. We need some cops over here, NOW!"

The response? "Sir, some officers will be there as soon as possible." I said, "This is a Tuesday night in Bloomington. How busy can they be?"

Another five minutes passed, after which the truck driver, standing in his own back yard, squared-off with one of the black guys. They stood nose-to-nose, and the white guy, who had not used a racial epithet before this, said, "Get out of my yard, nigger, and leave me alone." He then turned around and tried to walk away. As he reached his porch steps -- thud! -- he was hit, hard, on the side of his head with that 2x4.

As he feel to his knees, holding his head and with blood oozing between his fingers, the rest of the gang started kicking him. I ran across the driveway as I called 911 for the third time. I said, "Someone has been badly injured here; we need an ambulance." I then told everyone to "knock it off," that the cops were on the way, and that they better get "out of here" if they didn't want to go to jail. All of them took off, except the guy who actually lived upstairs.

The ambulance and cops arrived five minutes later (20 minutes after my initial call). The truck driver spent three days in the hospital and came home with a stitched and bandaged head. Two cops interviewed me and my upstairs neighbor. They didn't arrest anyone. When I asked why not (my upstairs neighbor was the one with the 2X4), an obnoxious punk of a female cop said to me, in a condescending manner, "Sir, your friend used the N-word. He should not have done that."

I replied: "So does that mean they had a right to split his skull open? Besides, they were calling him all kind of racial names long before this happened. He tried to walk away, and he was struck from behind."

Nothing was ever done about this. Government efficiency and justice in action.

Ghs

There was some government efficiency in there somewhere, in that the only weapons used were words and lumber, and presumably your neighbours and the inconsiderable dolts ( although they seem to have been considerably doltish) all still are living their lives, doltish and racist as they might be. I assume the Illinois government did not have a stand your ground law, and the NRA & co. had not been hustling around the neighbourhood with great specials on Saturday Night Specials. If everyone had been armed, indeed dear self and property could have been defended: and. or. a lot of people could have been dead,including you.

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George:

This is the template that I hear about from all over.

Additionally, I have been part of too many of these because I also get involved rather than be blind to this sickness of apathy.

I will tell you all, though, since this President has been elected, it has gotten exponentially worse.

There is an edge out there that i have not seen since the late '60's.

Watch your back everyone.

Adam

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There was some government efficiency in there somewhere, in that the only weapons used were words and lumber, and presumably your neighbours and the inconsiderable dolts ( although they seem to have been considerably doltish) all still are living their lives, doltish and racist as they might be. I assume the Illinois government did not have a stand your ground law, and the NRA & co. had not been hustling around the neighbourhood with great specials on Saturday Night Specials. If everyone had been armed, indeed dear self and property could have been defended: and. or. a lot of people could have been dead,including you.

This is a dumb analysis.

This was reverse-racism in action, with a touch of police laziness thrown in for good measure.

This was a serious case of assault. If the races had been reversed, you can bet your bottom dollar that the attacker would have been arrested.

I had all kinds of problems with that creep upstairs. The worst happened around 4 in the morning on a Wednesday ,while that guy and around twenty of his friends were stomping on the floor directly above my dining room. I am a late-nighter, so I was up, working at my computer, in another room. I suddenly heard this tremendous crash. It sounded like a bomb had gone off, as well over half of my dining room ceiling came crashing to the floor. There were huge chunks of heavy plaster everywhere, and dust filled my entire place. I could easily have been killed had I been in the room at the time.

I immediately called the cops. They arrived in around 40 minutes, i.e, a little before 5 a.m. One of them was that same female punk. When they knocked on the door, I told them to step in so they could see the mess -- and it was a real mess, not just a few pieces here and there. I told them that the people upstairs had been jumping up and down so hard (I guess they were dancing) that they caved in nearly my entire ceiling. Moreover, the music was still blaring.

Do you know what that bitch said to me? "Well, what do you expect us to do about it?" Honest to god, that is exactly what she said.

My landlord evicted that creep after this, but this took nearly six months. Meanwhile, since the creep blamed me for the eviction, he threatened to beat my "punk ass" a number of times, he kicked down my cellar door, he flooded my living room while I wasn't home by letting his tub overflow (this ruined a couch and over 100 books, which he thought was hilarious), and he pulled a bunch of other stunts. I called the cops several times, and they "talked" to him a few times, but that was it.

The last time I called, the same female cop (she and her partner were white) said that they had talked to him about the problem before, and that I should stop calling. When I noted that he had threatened to beat me up several times, she said that he probably didn't mean it. Her exact words: "That's just the way those people talk."

Those people? I didn't give a rat's ass about the guy's race. (All of my upstairs neighbors over the previous eight years were black, and we got along fine. In fact, I would sometimes babysit for a single working mom, in exchange for which she cooked me some great meals.) He was a thug, pure and simple.

Ghs

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George:

Yep...and when there is a "domestic violence" call it is just as bad.

The PC crap is so offensive as to be laughable.

This is why so many folks are arming up because the police cannot be relied upon in most jurisdictions.

Adam

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You can't party like that in the Tucson city limits. The police will stop it. They will red tag your apartment or house and if they have to come back the shit will hit the fan. There can be a problem with police response per se, though, for calls are prioritized and there aren't that many cops. I think you might be dealing with a heavily corrupt police force, too. I'm suspicious of the Chicago influence.

--Brant

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There was some government efficiency in there somewhere, in that the only weapons used were words and lumber, and presumably your neighbours and the inconsiderable dolts ( although they seem to have been considerably doltish) all still are living their lives, doltish and racist as they might be. I assume the Illinois government did not have a stand your ground law, and the NRA & co. had not been hustling around the neighbourhood with great specials on Saturday Night Specials. If everyone had been armed, indeed dear self and property could have been defended: and. or. a lot of people could have been dead,including you.

This is a dumb analysis.

This was reverse-racism in action, with a touch of police laziness thrown in for good measure.

This was a serious case of assault. If the races had been reversed, you can bet your bottom dollar that the attacker would have been arrested.

I had all kinds of problems with that creep upstairs. The worst happened around 4 in the morning on a Wednesday ,while that guy and around twenty of his friends were stomping on the floor directly above my dining room. I am a late-nighter, so I was up, working at my computer, in another room. I suddenly heard this tremendous crash. It sounded like a bomb had gone off, as well over half of my dining room ceiling came crashing to the floor. There were huge chunks of heavy plaster everywhere, and dust filled my entire place. I could easily have been killed had I been in the room at the time.

I immediately called the cops. They arrived in around 40 minutes, i.e, a little before 5 a.m. One of them was that same female punk. When they knocked on the door, I told them to step in so they could see the mess -- and it was a real mess, not just a few pieces here and there. I told them that the people upstairs had been jumping up and down so hard (I guess they were dancing) that they caved in nearly my entire ceiling. Moreover, the music was still blaring.

Do you know what that bitch said to me? "Well, what do you expect us to do about it?" Honest to god, that is exactly what she said.

My landlord evicted that creep after this, but this took nearly six months. Meanwhile, since the creep blamed me for the eviction, he threatened to beat my "punk ass" a number of times, he kicked down my cellar door, he flooded my living room while I wasn't home by letting his tub overflow (this ruined a couch and over 100 books, which he thought was hilarious), and he pulled a bunch of other stunts. I called the cops several times, and they "talked" to him a few times, but that was it. The last time I called, the same bitch said that they had talked to him about the problem before, and that I should stop calling. When I noted that he had threatened to beat me up several times, she said that he probably didn't mean it.

Ghs

There was some government efficiency in there somewhere, in that the only weapons used were words and lumber, and presumably your neighbours and the inconsiderable dolts ( although they seem to have been considerably doltish) all still are living their lives, doltish and racist as they might be. I assume the Illinois government did not have a stand your ground law, and the NRA & co. had not been hustling around the neighbourhood with great specials on Saturday Night Specials. If everyone had been armed, indeed dear self and property could have been defended: and. or. a lot of people could have been dead,including you.

This is a dumb analysis.

This was reverse-racism in action, with a touch of police laziness thrown in for good measure.

This was a serious case of assault. If the races had been reversed, you can bet your bottom dollar that the attacker would have been arrested.

I had all kinds of problems with that creep upstairs. The worst happened around 4 in the morning on a Wednesday ,while that guy and around twenty of his friends were stomping on the floor directly above my dining room. I am a late-nighter, so I was up, working at my computer, in another room. I suddenly heard this tremendous crash. It sounded like a bomb had gone off, as well over half of my dining room ceiling came crashing to the floor. There were huge chunks of heavy plaster everywhere, and dust filled my entire place. I could easily have been killed had I been in the room at the time.

I immediately called the cops. They arrived in around 40 minutes, i.e, a little before 5 a.m. One of them was that same female punk. When they knocked on the door, I told them to step in so they could see the mess -- and it was a real mess, not just a few pieces here and there. I told them that the people upstairs had been jumping up and down so hard (I guess they were dancing) that they caved in nearly my entire ceiling. Moreover, the music was still blaring.

Do you know what that bitch said to me? "Well, what do you expect us to do about it?" Honest to god, that is exactly what she said.

My landlord evicted that creep after this, but this took nearly six months. Meanwhile, since the creep blamed me for the eviction, he threatened to beat my "punk ass" a number of times, he kicked down my cellar door, he flooded my living room while I wasn't home by letting his tub overflow (this ruined a couch and over 100 books, which he thought was hilarious), and he pulled a bunch of other stunts. I called the cops several times, and they "talked" to him a few times, but that was it. The last time I called, the same bitch said that they had talked to him about the problem before, and that I should stop calling. When I noted that he had threatened to beat me up several times, she said that he probably didn't mean it.

Ghs

With respect, George, how many times did he beat you up?

Those people were horrible, and if the police protected them due to racism, that was horrible too. My only point here was just me dragging out the equine corpse again: everyone is still alive. If you had all been armed and used that fact to "defend" yourselves against each other, would that still be so?

I know you are an anarchist, and against government, and for all I know laws ( I should know this, because I do read your threads but mostly the history ones). The only anarchist society blueprint I ever read (not yours), it seemed that society would be regulated by insurance companies. And I am sure that reams of words have been written about private security companies and compensation and so on in a governmentless society.

But the only sensible comment at the root of the whole issue of an armed citizenry I have read was made by Ayn Rand: the handgun is a tool for killing people. That's all she said, and when she's right, she's right.

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But the only sensible comment at the root of the whole issue of an armed citizenry I have read was made by Ayn Rand: the handgun is a tool for killing people. That's all she said, and when she's right, she's right.

Carol:

Except when she is wrong as in this case. I have had guns all my life, properly trained. A handgun is a tool for protecting yourself. It is a shield which converts to a sword when necessary.

More people are killed with knives than you could possibly believe.

Now let us say that the members of that group that attempted to murder George's truck driver had grown up in a civilly armed society, one of two (2) possibilities would have developed from their exposure to that civilly armed society:

1) they would have been walking on tip toes and much more cordial and respectful; or

2) someone would have killed them long ago.

The results are a more courteous society wherein people respect each other because they have to.

Additionally, rape and assaults on women decreases dramatically when the civil citizenry are armed.

You may not like what I am saying, but it is a fact of reality. More guns, less crime.

Adam

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With respect, George, how many times did he beat you up?

None, but he stopped the threats and the malicious damage only after I threatened him. I literally threatened to kill him.

I concocted my threat in advance and saved it for an appropriate occasion. I even rehearsed it. It was pure bullshit, but it was very credible, and he believed me.

The occasion to use my bullshit threat came when he threatened to kill my dog (my first Bichon, Herbert). This happened when I encountered him on the sidewalk while I was walking Herbert late at night. I pulled Herbert over to the side so he could pass, and I didn't say anything. But as he walked by, he said, "Keep that fuckin' dog out of my way, or I'll kick the shit out of him."

I replied, "He's not in your way."

He responded with taunts. "Too bad if your dog showed up dead one day." "Too bad if he disappeared." Etc. Etc.

I took a deep breath and recited my script:

If you ever touch my dog or me, then you'd better watch your back. You know what's going to happen? I'm going to get my Walther PPK [i owned one for many years but sold it 20 years ago], walk up to you one day, and empty the clip into your head. You've heard that I have cancer, right? [Another lie.] Well, I do, and I'll be lucky if I live another year. I don't give a shit if I spend the last few months of my life in a prison hospital. It would be worth it to watch you die. So keep away from me and my dog, or I will blow your fucking head off.

I then turned and walked away. The guy never said another word to me, and no more antics occurred, even though he didn't vacate his place for another two months. No more parties -- nothing at all. He was quiet as a mouse.

Ah, the power of reason!

Ghs

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Proving once again that you can get more with a kind word and a gun than with just a kind word...

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Proving once again that you can get more with a kind word and a gun than with just a kind word...

Proving once again that you can get more with a kind word and a gun than with just a kind word...

Proving that with words you can win, -- and those words were hardly kind. George's words were about a gun, but he had no actual gun, he was threatening to use one. If he had had that Walther, and if that despicable excuse for a human being he was talking to had had one, what would have happened?

You are making my points for me.

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Proving once again that you can get more with a kind word and a gun than with just a kind word...
Proving once again that you can get more with a kind word and a gun than with just a kind word...
Proving that with words you can win, -- and those words were hardly kind. George's words were about a gun, but he had no actual gun, he was threatening to use one. If he had had that Walther, and if that despicable excuse for a human being he was talking to had had one, what would have happened? You are making my points for me.

The guy was a young punk, not a serious gangster. I never thought that he would ever attack me, but I did take seriously the possibility that he might kill my dog. It was just the sort of thing he would do, and then laugh about it. (I even considered this possibility long before the incident occurred. I was very reluctant to leave Herbert home alone, so I took him almost everywhere with me, whenever possible.)

I didn't own a gun at the time, but if he had killed my dog, I would have carried through with my threat. That dog meant the world to me, far more than most people ever have. So I would have purchased a gun and shot him dead, without a shred of remorse. I would have called the cops and taken the punishment. I would then have written a book about the incident, and won the sympathy and acclaim of dog-lovers everywhere. 8-)

None of this crap, including my bullshit threat, would have been necessary if the cops had done their job. They could easily have put the fear of god into that punk, but they didn't.

GhsGhs

Client: "What if someone murdered your wife?"

Nathaniel Branden (1976): "I'd do everything I could to kill him." (Quotations not exact. I was not the guy asking the question.)

--Brant

uh, George, don't call the cops if you can get away with it

the beast within

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The results are a more courteous society wherein people respect each other because they have to.

Same goes with nuclear bombs apparently. Less wars.

People are less suicidal than we fear they are.

Agreed. We won the only nuclear war in history also.

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I would not use Ayn Rand as an authority on guns. BTW, what was the actual quotation?

--Brant

I would not use Ayn Rand as an authority on guns. BTW, what was the actual quotation?

--Brant

It came up on another thread, Ayn Rand on Gun control I think...I assumed it was accurate,

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What is your opinion on gun control laws?

I do not know enough about it to have an opinion, except to say that it’s not of primary importance. Forbidding guns or registering them is not going to stop criminals from having them; nor is it a great threat to the private, noncriminal citizen if he has to register the fact that he has a gun. It’s not an important issue, unless you’re ready to begin a private uprising right now, which isn’t very practical.

What is your attitude toward gun control?

It’s a complex, technical issue in the philosophy of law. Handguns are instruments for killing people–they are not carried for hunting animals–and you have no right to kill people. You do have the right to self-defense, however. I don’t know how the issue is to be resolved to protect you without giving you the privilege to kill people at whim.

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The results are a more courteous society wherein people respect each other because they have to.

Same goes with nuclear bombs apparently. Less wars.

People are less suicidal than we fear they are.

Agreed. We won the only nuclear war in history also.

The atomic bombings were not nuclear, and nuclear or atomic it was neither respecting the war they were used in. A true nuclear war would be both sides using nuclear weapons on each other and defining of the conflict. MAD was the fear we lived with in the 1960s and 1970s. Now, the bombings, conventional and atomic of Japan, were so devastating the U.S. was actually running out of targets at the end. If it had all been atomic not mostly fire bombing because of the combustibility of urban Japan the damage could not have been greater. A nuclear bomb would have done much more damage. A 30 megaton super bomb exploded at 30,000 ft. would have pretty much destroyed everything in a circle emcompassing Boston and Washingto D.C. in a gigantic firestorm. Today a concern is the effects of electro-magnetic pulse (EMP) wiping out the electric and electronic infrastructure.

--Brant

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I would not use Ayn Rand as an authority on guns. BTW, what was the actual quotation?

--Brant

I would not use Ayn Rand as an authority on guns. BTW, what was the actual quotation?

--Brant

It came up on another thread, Ayn Rand on Gun control I think...I assumed it was accurate,

It was an accurate statement as such, whoever made it, but incomplete.

--Brant

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