Some really worthless garbage


Robert Baratheon

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Robert has already fully expressed his values here in his own words.

There is no doubt as to what values he lives by. Knowing that he's a government lawyer only helps to explain why. We each choose careers which are direct personal expressions of our selves.

Greg

I disagree with your psychologizing from afar about individuals and their motivations.

I especially dislike your "there is no doubt" statements. Again, these absolute statements are unapplicable to an individual human being.

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Robert has already fully expressed his values here in his own words.

There is no doubt as to what values he lives by. Knowing that he's a government lawyer only helps to explain why. We each choose careers which are direct personal expressions of our selves.

Greg

I disagree with your psychologizing from afar about individuals and their motivations.

I especially dislike your "there is no doubt" statements. Again, these absolute statements are unapplicable to an individual human being.

Well, that's my opinion nonetheless. Robert has been clear in freely expressing in his own words the values he lives by. And being a government lawyer is perfectly consistent with his own expressions.

Greg

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Robert has already fully expressed his values here in his own words.

There is no doubt as to what values he lives by. Knowing that he's a government lawyer only helps to explain why. We each choose careers which are direct personal expressions of our selves.

Greg

I disagree with your psychologizing from afar about individuals and their motivations.

I especially dislike your "there is no doubt" statements. Again, these absolute statements are unapplicable to an individual human being.

Well, that's my opinion nonetheless. Robert has been clear in freely expressing in his own words the values he lives by. And being a government lawyer is perfectly consistent with his own expressions.

Greg

How so?

And please be specific because I know you can be very specific when you want to be.

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Robert has already fully expressed his values here in his own words.

There is no doubt as to what values he lives by. Knowing that he's a government lawyer only helps to explain why. We each choose careers which are direct personal expressions of our selves.

Greg

I disagree with your psychologizing from afar about individuals and their motivations.

I especially dislike your "there is no doubt" statements. Again, these absolute statements are unapplicable to an individual human being.

Well, that's my opinion nonetheless. Robert has been clear in freely expressing in his own words the values he lives by. And being a government lawyer is perfectly consistent with his own expressions.

Greg

How so?

And please be specific because I know you can be very specific when you want to be.

Sure. Here's the most recent example:

My point has always been that everyone has a price. The difference is I know what mine is.

No ambiguity there.

Greg

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My point has always been that everyone has a price. The difference is I know what mine is.

No ambiguity there.

Greg

Quite a bit of ambiguity, actually. I never told you what was being bought or sold. You jumped to an absolutist conclusion because that's what you do.

When I said "I know what my price is," I was speaking rhetorically. Meaning unlike Michael and Kacy, I acknowledge that everyone has a price - for everything - and knowing your prices ahead of time provides self-awareness that empowers decision-making.

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I don't know if he's a lawyer. He said several times he works for the government.

During earlier times he has put on quite a show. We have a poster who leans left named Kacy. I think they were childhood friends or something. Kacy went into the armed services and this dude stalks him all the time to call him a hypocrite for working for the government. Oh... there's the blah blah blah he serves up, but it's basically one government person calling another government person a hypocrite for working for the government.

(For the record, I realize people have to work for the government for it to run and I will not look down on anyone for working at a job, government or otherwise, but am more favorably inclined toward the military than bureaucrats. My real problem is I just can't stand the posturing when it's all bullshit.)

When those two start going at it, you want to tell them to get a room.

Michael,

You've spoken here (some might say "preached") about what you find irritating about me. Here's what I find irritating about you: you gloss over the details. You get an impression - a gist - for something, and then the details are just so much "bullshit" to you. It's laziness, and it's led to you mischaracterizing several of my statements and missing key distinctions.

Here is my unsolicited advice for you: stop phoning it in and read the transcript. The details aren't "bullshit." They matter, and how people phrase things is important. Give your posters that basic courtesy and inform yourself in the process.

A) I've explained I'm a lawyer several times here. The fact that you don't know this leads me to wonder what else has been missed.

B) I've explained my history with Kacy as well. You profess ignorance about it, then have the arrogance to offer your "insight" in the same sentence.

C) My statements aren't "blah blah blah" any more than yours are. They convey ideas and information. If you don't want to listen to what I'm saying, that's your choice, but do us all a favor and stay out of it. Nobody asked you to torpedo my thread with your insults and accusations of "preaching." People can decide that for themselves. We were having a discussion and your only effect was to come in and shit all over it like a territorial animal. You have your own premises to check if you think that's helpful behavior.

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My point has always been that everyone has a price. The difference is I know what mine is.

No ambiguity there.

Greg

Quite a bit of ambiguity, actually. I never told you what was being bought or sold. You jumped to an absolutist conclusion because that's what you do.

When I said "I know what my price is," I was speaking rhetorically. Meaning unlike Michael and Kacy, I acknowledge that everyone has a price - for everything - and knowing your prices ahead of time provides self-awareness that empowers decision-making.

The devil wants to talk with you.

--Brant

no ambiguity

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I'm biting my tongue.

I swear I'm going to try to be nice...

That's from another thread relative to the same poster (RB).

Boy did I screw that up.

:smile:

I made a promise to myself when I started studying persuasion techniques that I would not use them to control people on OL. I didn't, I don't and I will not. Instead, I try to teach this stuff as I learn it and discuss it so people can have tools to resist it in the culture.

A lot of times I let a bad situation like this thread continue rather than dig out the covert arsenal. I believe this way is more honest. I think you, the reader, come to OL for that. My refusal to target people with covert persuasion on the forum, but to discuss it instead, is part of the the value I try to provide you.

My thing is to encourage people to think for themselves, not to manipulate them (like our Francisco D'Anconia wannabe tries to do).

But this dude sorely tempts me...

:smile:

(Don't worry, though. I'm not selling out--ever. In this dude's case, I will content myself with the fun of pulling the covers off his bullshit rather than play puppetmaster. Besides, playing puppetmaster is creepy stuff for a person of my moral inclination.)

MIchael

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My point has always been that everyone has a price. The difference is I know what mine is.

No ambiguity there.

Greg

Quite a bit of ambiguity, actually. I never told you what was being bought or sold. You jumped to an absolutist conclusion because that's what you do.

When I said "I know what my price is," I was speaking rhetorically. Meaning unlike Michael and Kacy, I acknowledge that everyone has a price - for everything - and knowing your prices ahead of time provides self-awareness that empowers decision-making.

That's definitely a value befitting a lawyer.

And the fact that you are one explains why you have it.

Greg

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That's definitely a value befitting a lawyer.

And the fact that you are one explains why you have it.

Greg

That's only at work. When he goes home to his wife and his children . . .

Howard Roark had no price, but Ayn Rand gave him a lot of work anyway.

--Brant

especially in the granite quarry and in Dominique's bed--but those weren't commissions--bad mood and all

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My point has always been that everyone has a price. The difference is I know what mine is.

No ambiguity there.

Greg

Quite a bit of ambiguity, actually. I never told you what was being bought or sold. You jumped to an absolutist conclusion because that's what you do.

When I said "I know what my price is," I was speaking rhetorically. Meaning unlike Michael and Kacy, I acknowledge that everyone has a price - for everything - and knowing your prices ahead of time provides self-awareness that empowers decision-making.

The devil wants to talk with you.

--Brant

no ambiguity

Please tell him the line is busy. :wink:

The devil talks to everyone through their devious deceitful intellect. You can prove this for yourself. Do something wrong and he will speak to you in your own voice with wordy convoluted justifications that what you did was right.

Greg

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I made a promise to myself when I started studying persuasion techniques that I would not use them to control people on OL. I didn't, I don't and I will not. Instead, I try to teach this stuff as I learn it and discuss it so people can have tools to resist it in the culture.

A lot of times I let a bad situation like this thread continue rather than dig out the covert arsenal. I believe this way is more honest. I think you, the reader, come to OL for that. My refusal to target people with covert persuasion on the forum, but to discuss it instead, is part of the the value I try to provide you.

My thing is to encourage people to think for themselves, not to manipulate them (like our Francisco D'Anconia wannabe tries to do).

But this dude sorely tempts me...

:smile:

(Don't worry, though. I'm not selling out--ever. In this dude's case, I will content myself with the fun of pulling the covers off his bullshit rather than play puppetmaster. Besides, playing puppetmaster is creepy stuff for a person of my moral inclination.)

MIchael

Thanks for the laffs, Michael, but you have about as much a chance nudging me with Cass Sunstein's hokum as you have sneaking dawn past the rooster. You might not realize I worked under Sunstein in the White House on regulatory policy in 2011. Some people are so far behind in the race, they actually believe they're winning.

You already acknowledged there's nothing inherently immoral about manipulating others in your sermon in the manipulation thread, so you have no basis to call me "creepy" for making that same argument now. It's like you aren't even listening to yourself anymore - you're just sermonizing and rationalizing all over the place, changing your argument to suit the needs of the moment. This is why I hold people to their words by going to the transcript:

------------------------

"MSK: So the people who train covert persuasion techniques and use them are either scumbags who are predators, or people interested in protecting themselves and letting others know what is going on (like you are doing). There's a gray area where you do this with marketing, political persuasion, and so on. There are no hard and fast moral rules here (and believe me, I've looked), but there are some really good guidelines.

Let's take marketing. Is it illegitimate to stack on covert persuasion techniques until the customer can't stand it and can't wait to pull out his wallet? After a lot of study and mulling it over, I say it's OK because all of the competition from the big guys are doing it. So it's simple survival. But here's the caveat. When you do this, you have to have a genuine preoccupation with getting the customer's wants and needs right, and serving him with a top-quality product. Value for value. And you have to have a reasonable and rational guarantee and refund policy. Within that scenario, I say go for it. So long as there is an undo button and you're providing the good stuff, I believe nudging a person to acquire it is fine."

------------------------

I seriously doubt you can point to anyone I've harmed or preyed upon, so according to your own words, I'm just surviving and using the power available to me to do good in the world. To be honest, you've got me questioning one premise - whether it's worth even debating with someone who completely ignores every time I point out an inconsistency or make a valid counterpoint. On to your next sermon...

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"MSK: So the people who train covert persuasion techniques and use them are either scumbags who are predators, or people interested in protecting themselves and letting others know what is going on (like you are doing). There's a gray area where you do this with marketing, political persuasion, and so on. There are no hard and fast moral rules here (and believe me, I've looked), but there are some really good guidelines.

Let's take marketing. Is it illegitimate to stack on covert persuasion techniques until the customer can't stand it and can't wait to pull out his wallet? After a lot of study and mulling it over, I say it's OK because all of the competition from the big guys are doing it. So it's simple survival. But here's the caveat. When you do this, you have to have a genuine preoccupation with getting the customer's wants and needs right, and serving him with a top-quality product. Value for value. And you have to have a reasonable and rational guarantee and refund policy. Within that scenario, I say go for it. So long as there is an undo button and you're providing the good stuff, I believe nudging a person to acquire it is fine."

Michael Stuart Kelly

Internet Status: Owned

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Nobody asked you to torpedo my thread with your insults and accusations of "preaching."

Robert, I think you mean another thread that's your thread. This isn't your thread.

--Brant

minor (not-sarcastic) technical point

However, an accurate point.

So much accuracy can get "lost" in an emotional debate.

Once you get past Lady Liberty holding the scales of Justice, while she is blindfolded, and you enter the "Court," particularly in the Family courts, or,, the Supreme Court with a Domestic Relations matter, the first casualties are the Truth and the Facts.

Outright perjury is tolerated by an agenda driven system.

One of the reasons that a work so hard to mediate these disputes rather than allow an agenda driven system to determine the lives of children.

Scales-02-june.gif

Gavel-02-june.gif

A...

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Let's take marketing. Is it illegitimate to stack on covert persuasion techniques until the customer can't stand it and can't wait to pull out his wallet?

Not illegitimate. Unethical.

After a lot of study and mulling it over, I say it's OK because all of the competition from the big guys are doing it. So it's simple survival. But here's the caveat. When you do this, you have to have a genuine preoccupation with getting the customer's wants and needs right, and serving him with a top-quality product. Value for value. And you have to have a reasonable and rational guarantee and refund policy. Within that scenario, I say go for it. So long as there is an undo button and you're providing the good stuff, I believe nudging a person to acquire it is fine."

If that's truly your view, Robert... then you have just enumerated the price for which you have been bought:

Doing what lying snakes in the grass do.

I've done the marketing in my business for well over three decades and have never needed to resort to using "covert persuasion techniques" to manipulate others,. This is because the values by which I live differ from yours.

Greg

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Once you get past Lady Liberty holding the scales of Justice, while she is blindfolded, and you enter the "Court," particularly in the Family courts, or,, the Supreme Court with a Domestic Relations matter, the first casualties are the Truth and the Facts.

The legal system is a snake pit full of slimy slithering lying poisonous vipers.

It is to be avoided at all costs.

Greg

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Let's take marketing. Is it illegitimate to stack on covert persuasion techniques until the customer can't stand it and can't wait to pull out his wallet?

Not illegitimate. Unethical.

After a lot of study and mulling it over, I say it's OK because all of the competition from the big guys are doing it. So it's simple survival. But here's the caveat. When you do this, you have to have a genuine preoccupation with getting the customer's wants and needs right, and serving him with a top-quality product. Value for value. And you have to have a reasonable and rational guarantee and refund policy. Within that scenario, I say go for it. So long as there is an undo button and you're providing the good stuff, I believe nudging a person to acquire it is fine."

If that's truly your view, Robert... then you have just enumerated the price for which you have been bought:

Doing what lying snakes in the grass do.

I've done the marketing in my business for well over three decades and have never needed to resort to using "covert persuasion techniques" to manipulate others,. This is because the values by which I live differ from yours.

Greg

Sorry to break it to you, but those were MSK's words in another thread.

I applaud your integrity, however.

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Let's take marketing. Is it illegitimate to stack on covert persuasion techniques until the customer can't stand it and can't wait to pull out his wallet?

Not illegitimate. Unethical.

After a lot of study and mulling it over, I say it's OK because all of the competition from the big guys are doing it. So it's simple survival. But here's the caveat. When you do this, you have to have a genuine preoccupation with getting the customer's wants and needs right, and serving him with a top-quality product. Value for value. And you have to have a reasonable and rational guarantee and refund policy. Within that scenario, I say go for it. So long as there is an undo button and you're providing the good stuff, I believe nudging a person to acquire it is fine."

If that's truly your view, Robert... then you have just enumerated the price for which you have been bought:

Doing what lying snakes in the grass do.

I've done the marketing in my business for well over three decades and have never needed to resort to using "covert persuasion techniques" to manipulate others,. This is because the values by which I live differ from yours.

Greg

Greg, that was a quote from Michael, not me. I indicated it was a quote with quote marks, block paragraph dividers, and Michael's initials on the first line immediately followed by a colon.

By all means though, you two fight this one out. Just let me get my popcorn.

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The devil wants to talk with you.

--Brant

no ambiguity

I think he might have an Oklahoma area code...

Satan-Ruling-Victims-of-H-008.jpg
The Horned One may get his own monument outside Oklahoma's statehouse if the Satanic Temple has its way. Photograph: Bettmann/Corbis

In their zeal to tout their faith in the public square, conservatives in Oklahoma may have unwittingly opened the door to a wide range of religious groups, including Satanists who are seeking to put their own statue next to a Ten Commandments monument outside the statehouse.

The Republican-controlled legislature in the state known as the buckle of the Bible Belt authorised the privately funded Ten Commandments monument in 2009. It was placed on the Capitol grounds last year despite criticism from legal experts, who questioned its constitutionality. The Oklahoma chapter of the American Civil Liberties Union has filed a lawsuit seeking its removal.

But the New York-based Satanic Temple saw an opportunity. It notified the state's Capitol Preservation Commission that it wants to donate a monument and plans to submit one of several possible designs this month, said Lucien Greaves, a spokesman for the temple.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/dec/08/satan-ten-commandments-oklahoma-city

You can't make this crap up because the actual story is too hilarious to top fiction...

A...

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Let's take marketing. Is it illegitimate to stack on covert persuasion techniques until the customer can't stand it and can't wait to pull out his wallet?

Not illegitimate. Unethical.

After a lot of study and mulling it over, I say it's OK because all of the competition from the big guys are doing it. So it's simple survival. But here's the caveat. When you do this, you have to have a genuine preoccupation with getting the customer's wants and needs right, and serving him with a top-quality product. Value for value. And you have to have a reasonable and rational guarantee and refund policy. Within that scenario, I say go for it. So long as there is an undo button and you're providing the good stuff, I believe nudging a person to acquire it is fine."

If that's truly your view, Robert... then you have just enumerated the price for which you have been bought:

Doing what lying snakes in the grass do.

I've done the marketing in my business for well over three decades and have never needed to resort to using "covert persuasion techniques" to manipulate others,. This is because the values by which I live differ from yours.

Greg

Sorry to break it to you, but those were MSK's words in another thread.

I applaud your integrity, however.

Thanks for the heads up, Bey. I saw it in Roberts post with no quote box so it looked like he said it.

Greg

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Let's take marketing. Is it illegitimate to stack on covert persuasion techniques until the customer can't stand it and can't wait to pull out his wallet?

Not illegitimate. Unethical.

After a lot of study and mulling it over, I say it's OK because all of the competition from the big guys are doing it. So it's simple survival. But here's the caveat. When you do this, you have to have a genuine preoccupation with getting the customer's wants and needs right, and serving him with a top-quality product. Value for value. And you have to have a reasonable and rational guarantee and refund policy. Within that scenario, I say go for it. So long as there is an undo button and you're providing the good stuff, I believe nudging a person to acquire it is fine."

If that's truly your view, Robert... then you have just enumerated the price for which you have been bought:

Doing what lying snakes in the grass do.

I've done the marketing in my business for well over three decades and have never needed to resort to using "covert persuasion techniques" to manipulate others,. This is because the values by which I live differ from yours.

Greg

Generally when a salesman comes into your home he intends to make about 30% of the sale as commission. Anything less than $500 is not worth his effort. He intends to stay there several hours for the longer he talks the more likely the sale and a sale not cancelled. I tried this once years ago but the customers and I had fun talking to each other telling our stories and I didn't make any sales that stuck. When I went with another salesman to learn the ropes, I felt degraded by the crap he put out trying to get the sale. So I quit. The salesman that legitimately comes to your home is the guy trying to sell you something that attached to the home becomes "real property," like replacement windows or a new a/c system and it's at your invitation. If it's someone trying to get you to list your home for sale, 70% of what he does is get you to sign, 20% to effectively aid in negotiations, and 10% put the property into Multiple Listing. Then, if you have 1000 re agents in your city most are working for you to get you a buyer. Never mind the listing agent and all the things he told you about how he'd "sell" your home. (He can't sell what he doesn't own anyway.) It used to be it was practical to sell your home without the aid of a broker if you knew what you were doing. Not any longer. A buyer wants an agent for legal and financial protection in these screwed up markets, especially as you not he pays the 6% off the sales' price. The people who make the most money in real estate are the listers. The real value though is in the buyer's agent. If you want to buy a home--a house--get the best buyers' agent you can find. Don't let the listing agent high-ball you to get the listing then grind you down over the months on the listing price.

--Brant

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The devil wants to talk with you.

--Brant

no ambiguity

I think he might have an Oklahoma area code...

Satan-Ruling-Victims-of-H-008.jpg
The Horned One may get his own monument outside Oklahoma's statehouse if the Satanic Temple has its way. Photograph: Bettmann/Corbis

In their zeal to tout their faith in the public square, conservatives in Oklahoma may have unwittingly opened the door to a wide range of religious groups, including Satanists who are seeking to put their own statue next to a Ten Commandments monument outside the statehouse.

The Republican-controlled legislature in the state known as the buckle of the Bible Belt authorised the privately funded Ten Commandments monument in 2009. It was placed on the Capitol grounds last year despite criticism from legal experts, who questioned its constitutionality. The Oklahoma chapter of the American Civil Liberties Union has filed a lawsuit seeking its removal.

But the New York-based Satanic Temple saw an opportunity. It notified the state's Capitol Preservation Commission that it wants to donate a monument and plans to submit one of several possible designs this month, said Lucien Greaves, a spokesman for the temple.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/dec/08/satan-ten-commandments-oklahoma-city

You can't make this crap up because the actual story is too hilarious to top fiction...

A...

Looks like Greg has his work cut out for him.

Greg: since Jesus appears to be asleep at the moment, perhaps it would be wise to go to the attic and open that dusty chest which contains the life you had while studying Castaneda. Put that superhero outfit on for old time's sake. It may be what these dire times require.

(half-joking)

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Generally when a salesman comes into your home he intends to make about 30% of the sale as commission. Anything less than $500 is not worth his effort. He intends to stay there several hours for the longer he talks the more likely the sale and a sale not cancelled. I tried this once years ago but the customers and I had fun talking to each other telling our stories and I didn't make any sales that stuck. When I went with another salesman to learn the ropes, I felt degraded by the crap he put out trying to get the sale. So I quit. The salesman that legitimately comes to your home is the guy trying to sell you something that attached to the home becomes "real property," like replacement windows or a new a/c system and it's at your invitation. If it's someone trying to get you to list your home for sale, 70% of what he does is get you to sign, 20% to effectively aid in negotiations, and 10% put the property into Multiple Listing. Then, if you have 1000 re agents in your city most are working for you to get you a buyer. Never mind the listing agent and all the things he told you about how he'd "sell" your home. (He can't sell what he doesn't own anyway.) It used to be it was practical to sell your home without the aid of a broker if you knew what you were doing. Not any longer. A buyer wants an agent for legal and financial protection in these screwed up markets, especially as you not he pays the 6% off the sales' price. The people who make the most money in re estate are the listers. The real value though is in the buyer's agent. If you want to buy a home--a house--get the best buyers' agent you can find. Don't let the listing agent high-ball you to get the listing then grind you down over the months on the listing price.

I recently bought a townhouse and the amount of work my buying agent performed was enormous. By the time we were finished meeting all of our regulatory requirements, documenting everything for the loan, and preparing the contractual documents, there was a stack of papers at the closing as high as a triple-layer cake. Her advice in negotiations was also valuable - she had been buying and selling in the area for over two decades, so we were benefiting from her significant informational advantage. To be honest, for the amount of work I saw her do and at such odd hours, I'm not even sure I would have taken the sale in her place. Hopefully she enjoys the work because I've heard it's very difficult. I'm not looking forward to being on the seller's side of the arrangement in a few years time and having to pay that 6% out of pocket. My hope is our home will have appreciated in value to offset the cost by then.

I've never had a door-to-door salesman come to my home. I don't believe it would end very well for them if they did - I have a short fuse for having my time wasted. When I do get the odd telemarketer on my cellphone, I just tell them to eff off and hang up.

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