Michael Stuart Kelly Posted July 13, 2014 Share Posted July 13, 2014 ... you don't have the slightest clue about how much I know about the topic anyway.I kinda have a notion because I have caught you several times misrepresenting stuff--getting it flat out wrong--that was right in front of your eyes. And with a posture of absolute certainty.You're also terrible about correcting your errors.Based on that alone, it's pretty reasonable to assume your knowledge of this topic is agenda-driven slogans backed by targeted information fed to you (probably from progressive professors).Michael Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anthony Posted July 13, 2014 Share Posted July 13, 2014 "...nothing short of genocide".I don't know whether to laugh or cry.Nothing, facts- or morality- gets through to this person. It cannot occur to such brainwashees that everything those goddam Zionists have ever done, is an attempt to avoid (or in the last resort, limit) any and all deaths. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Stuart Kelly Posted July 13, 2014 Share Posted July 13, 2014 For those who have Facebook, check this link out from Israel Defense Forces. The Facebook account says "Government Organization" in the header, so this is probably the offical page of the IDF.This was posted 4 hours ago.A rocket fired from Gaza hit electricity infrastructure in Israel that supplied power to Gaza, cutting power to about 70,000 people in Gaza.With aim like that, who needs to fight these folks in a war? Michael Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Selene Posted July 13, 2014 Share Posted July 13, 2014 A question for the death worshipper...Can we both agree with the Aristotelian truism that if one has the "will" and the "power," the deed/action is done?If so, do you then agree that Israel has the "power" to exterminate every single Palestinian within the borders of modern day Palestine?If you do agree, then why are there any left from your projected genocide?A... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BaalChatzaf Posted July 13, 2014 Author Share Posted July 13, 2014 I stand by what I said in that post. Israel's policies toward the Palestinians are nothing short of genocide. Anybody with eyes can see that, and, as I've come to learn, anybody who disagrees is usually ignorant of the topic, and when they're not, they've bought into the "Four legs good. Two legs bad." theory of history.Israel has never gassed a single Palestinian. Not one. If Israel were determined to wipe out Palestinians altogether they would have done it 30 or 40 years ago. Genocide is not government policy in Israel. G-D forbid that it should be.Ba'al Chatzaf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikee Posted July 13, 2014 Share Posted July 13, 2014 No doubt the death worshiper also regards the Holocaust as a myth. A moments research will yield ample evidence of what real genocide looks like. Even the best production of the Pallywood type pales in comparison to the real thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoAMadDeathWish Posted July 13, 2014 Share Posted July 13, 2014 "...nothing short of genocide".I don't know whether to laugh or cry.Nothing, facts- or morality- gets through to this person. It cannot occur to such brainwashees that everything those goddam Zionists have ever done, is an attempt to avoid (or in the last resort, limit) any and all deaths.The Israeli state must be truly blessed to be run by angels.A question for the death worshipper...Can we both agree with the Aristotelian truism that if one has the "will" and the "power," the deed/action is done?If so, do you then agree that Israel has the "power" to exterminate every single Palestinian within the borders of modern day Palestine?If you do agree, then why are there any left from your projected genocide?A...Israel has never gassed a single Palestinian. Not one. If Israel were determined to wipe out Palestinians altogether they would have done it 30 or 40 years ago. Genocide is not government policy in Israel. G-D forbid that it should be.Ba'al Chatzaf That's a simple but very interesting question. One thing before we go, Israel's motive is not the blind extermination of Palestinians for its own sake. Israel is interested in the land and resources that the Palestinians occupy, and they don't care what they have to do to get it, even if it means they have to take it by force.Israel relies heavily on the support of the US and the UN. If they just went in and straight up started slaughtering Palestinians, their leaders would face all sorts of opposition from the rest of the world. Everything from trade embargoes to being tried for war crimes. Obviously they want to avoid those scenarios, so they have to resort to a "round-about" way of achieving their goals. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoAMadDeathWish Posted July 13, 2014 Share Posted July 13, 2014 No doubt the death worshiper also regards the Holocaust as a myth. A moments research will yield ample evidence of what real genocide looks like. Even the best production of the Pallywood type pales in comparison to the real thing.No I don't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikee Posted July 14, 2014 Share Posted July 14, 2014 No doubt the death worshiper also regards the Holocaust as a myth. A moments research will yield ample evidence of what real genocide looks like. Even the best production of the Pallywood type pales in comparison to the real thing.No I don't.Good to know. Please describe how you compare the treatment of the Palestinians by Israel to the treatment of the Jews in WWII by the Germans. I would also like to have references, how was your view of Israel and the middle east formed? If I were to build your worldview in my own mind give me the tools. My experience with people from all over the world, including the middle east and Israel and my understanding of history conflicts with yours. Help me to repair my misguided prehensions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Selene Posted July 14, 2014 Share Posted July 14, 2014 "...nothing short of genocide".I don't know whether to laugh or cry.Nothing, facts- or morality- gets through to this person. It cannot occur to such brainwashees that everything those goddam Zionists have ever done, is an attempt to avoid (or in the last resort, limit) any and all deaths.The Israeli state must be truly blessed to be run by angels.A question for the death worshipper...Can we both agree with the Aristotelian truism that if one has the "will" and the "power," the deed/action is done?If so, do you then agree that Israel has the "power" to exterminate every single Palestinian within the borders of modern day Palestine?If you do agree, then why are there any left from your projected genocide?A...Israel has never gassed a single Palestinian. Not one. If Israel were determined to wipe out Palestinians altogether they would have done it 30 or 40 years ago. Genocide is not government policy in Israel. G-D forbid that it should be.Ba'al Chatzaf ...Israel's motive is not the blind extermination of Palestinians for its own sake. Israel is interested in the land and resources that the Palestinians occupy, and they don't care what they have to do to get it, even if it means they have to take it by force.Other than you being a complete imbecile with this modified argument concerning your unsupported charge that...let's see shall we?Yes, we shall.Your infantile brain stated that:I stand by what I said in that post. Israel's policies toward the Palestinians are nothing short of genocide*. Anybody with eyes can see that, and, as I've come to learn, anybody who disagrees is usually ignorant of the topic, and when they're not, they've bought into the "Four legs good. Two legs bad." theory of history.Now I am going to give you another chance to be intelligent. I know the various definitions for your use of the phrase "'Four legs good. Two legs bad'" theory of history.So define your use of that term:Anybody with eyes can see that, and, as I've come to learn, anybody who disagrees is usually ignorant of the topic, and when they're not, they've bought into the "Four legs good. Two legs bad." theory of history.Your primary "face/facade" is, upon my information and belief, replete with "question begging"***does that mean that THE JEWS" gas the Palestinians until a consensus of their lungs collapse and a consensus of the states scientists support the supposition that they are, in fact, dead?** Begging the question: a statement that says the same thing in the conclusion as in the premise. Such an argument is called circular.Example: We can believe what it says in the college catalogue because the catalogue itself says that it is the official publication of the college.A special kind of circular or question-begging argument uses a question-begging definition, one in which the conclusion of an argument is true by definition rather than by evidence. Example: By my definition, `unbreakable' means `requiring an unusual degree of force to break'; therefore, these dishes are unbreakable.There are your two (2) assignments. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoAMadDeathWish Posted July 14, 2014 Share Posted July 14, 2014 Good to know. Please describe how you compare the treatment of the Palestinians by Israel to the treatment of the Jews in WWII by the Germans.There's not much to compare, they're pretty much the same.I would also like to have references, how was your view of Israel and the middle east formed?Mostly from debates with other people and the sources they referred me to.If I were to build your worldview in my own mind give me the tools. My experience with people from all over the world, including the middle east and Israel and my understanding of history conflicts with yours. Help me to repair my misguided prehensions.http://www.amazon.com/The-Machiavellians-Defenders-James-Burnham/dp/0895267853Mostly, all it takes is looking at what people do instead of taking whatever they say at face value. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoAMadDeathWish Posted July 14, 2014 Share Posted July 14, 2014 Other than you being a complete imbecile with this modified argument concerning your unsupported charge that...let's see shall we?Yes, we shall.Your infantile brain stated that:I stand by what I said in that post. Israel's policies toward the Palestinians are nothing short of genocide*. Anybody with eyes can see that, and, as I've come to learn, anybody who disagrees is usually ignorant of the topic, and when they're not, they've bought into the "Four legs good. Two legs bad." theory of history.Now I am going to give you another chance to be intelligent. I know the various definitions for your use of the phrase "'Four legs good. Two legs bad'" theory of history.You're not making any sense. I can't even figure out what your charge is here.So define your use of that term:Anybody with eyes can see that, and, as I've come to learn, anybody who disagrees is usually ignorant of the topic, and when they're not, they've bought into the "Four legs good. Two legs bad." theory of history.It's the idea that in any conflict one side is the "good guys" and the other the "bad guys". This is usually followed by rationalization of the facts to fit this view.Your primary "face/facade" is, upon my information and belief, replete with "question begging"***does that mean that THE JEWS" gas the Palestinians until a consensus of their lungs collapse and a consensus of the states scientists support the supposition that they are, in fact, dead?** Begging the question: a statement that says the same thing in the conclusion as in the premise. Such an argument is called circular.Example: We can believe what it says in the college catalogue because the catalogue itself says that it is the official publication of the college.A special kind of circular or question-begging argument uses a question-begging definition, one in which the conclusion of an argument is true by definition rather than by evidence. Example: By my definition, `unbreakable' means `requiring an unusual degree of force to break'; therefore, these dishes are unbreakable.There are your two (2) assignments.Ummm... no. Genocide is the systematic killing of a group of people based on their ethnicity, religion, nationality, or geographic location. So when you see a systematic killing of a group of people based on their ethnicity, religion, nationality, or geographic location and then call it genocide, that's not a circular argument, that's a fact. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Selene Posted July 14, 2014 Share Posted July 14, 2014 Ummm... no. Genocide is the systematic killing of a group of people based on their ethnicity, religion, nationality, or geographic location. So when you see a systematic killing of a group of people based on their ethnicity, religion, nationality, or geographic location and then call it genocide, that's not a circular argument, that's a fact.You are so pitifully ignorant.Thanks though. Therefore, since HAMAS has recently merged with the PLO and HAMAS's declared policy position is to eradicate all Jews and Israel, that is not a declared genocidal position?OKA... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoAMadDeathWish Posted July 14, 2014 Share Posted July 14, 2014 Ummm... no. Genocide is the systematic killing of a group of people based on their ethnicity, religion, nationality, or geographic location. So when you see a systematic killing of a group of people based on their ethnicity, religion, nationality, or geographic location and then call it genocide, that's not a circular argument, that's a fact.You are so pitifully ignorant.Thanks though. Therefore, since HAMAS has recently merged with the PLO and HAMAS's declared policy position is to eradicate all Jews and Israel, that is not a declared genocidal position?OKA...This is simply false. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Selene Posted July 14, 2014 Share Posted July 14, 2014 Ummm... no. Genocide is the systematic killing of a group of people based on their ethnicity, religion, nationality, or geographic location. So when you see a systematic killing of a group of people based on their ethnicity, religion, nationality, or geographic location and then call it genocide, that's not a circular argument, that's a fact.You are so pitifully ignorant.Thanks though. Therefore, since HAMAS has recently merged with the PLO and HAMAS's declared policy position is to eradicate all Jews and Israel, that is not a declared genocidal position?OKA...This is simply false.Wow... brilliant.Why am I so incapable of coming up with such brilliant refutation...I will now slink into the caverns of logical thought supported by evidence...or, at least an attempt at it,A... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoAMadDeathWish Posted July 14, 2014 Share Posted July 14, 2014 Wow... brilliant.Why am I so incapable of coming up with such brilliant refutation...I will now slink into the caverns of logical thought supported by evidence...or, at least an attempt at it,A...Because the facts obviously contradict your position. If they didn't, you would have presented your evidence that Hamas seeks to eradicate all Jews. But of course, you don't actually have any so you resort to personal attacks instead. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Selene Posted July 14, 2014 Share Posted July 14, 2014 Wow... brilliant.Why am I so incapable of coming up with such brilliant refutation...I will now slink into the caverns of logical thought supported by evidence...or, at least an attempt at it,A...Because the facts obviously contradict your position. If they didn't, you would have presented your evidence that Hamas seeks to eradicate all Jews. But of course, you don't actually have any so you resort to personal attacks instead.Here is a "fact" about HAMAS:...Mousa Mohammed Abu Marzook, deputy chairman of Hamas political bureau, said in 2014 that "Hamas will not recognize Israel", adding "this is a red line that cannot be crossed".[27]Here twit: CharterMain article: Hamas CharterThe Hamas Charter (or Covenant), issued in 1988, outlined the organization's position on many issues at the time. It identifies Hamas as the Muslim Brotherhood in Palestine and declares its members to be Muslims who "fear God and raise the banner of Jihad in the face of the oppressors". The charter states "our struggle against the Jews is very great and very serious" and calls for the eventual creation of an Islamic state in Palestine, in place of Israel and the Palestinian Territories,[45] and the obliteration or dissolution of Israel.[78][79] The Charter also asserts that through shrewd manipulation of imperial countries and secret societies, Zionists were behind a wide range of events and disasters going as far back in history as the French Revolution. Among the charter's controversial statements is the following: "The time will not come until Muslims will fight the Jews [and kill them]; until the Jews hide behind rocks and trees, which will cry: O Muslim! There is a Jew hiding behind me, come on and kill him!"[44] The document also quotes Islamic religious texts to provide justification for fighting against and killing the Jews of Israel,[80] presenting the Arab–Israeli conflict as an inherently irreconcilable struggle between Jews and Muslims, and Judaism and Islam,[44] adding that the only way to engage in this struggle between "truth and falsehood" is through Islam and by means of jihad, until victory or martyrdom.[44] The Charter adds that "renouncing any part of Palestine means renouncing part of the religion" of Islam.[81] The charter states that Hamas is humanistic, and tolerant of other religions as long as they do not block Hamas's efforts.[82]A... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoAMadDeathWish Posted July 14, 2014 Share Posted July 14, 2014 Wow... brilliant.Why am I so incapable of coming up with such brilliant refutation...I will now slink into the caverns of logical thought supported by evidence...or, at least an attempt at it,A...Because the facts obviously contradict your position. If they didn't, you would have presented your evidence that Hamas seeks to eradicate all Jews. But of course, you don't actually have any so you resort to personal attacks instead.Here is a "fact" about HAMAS:...Mousa Mohammed Abu Marzook, deputy chairman of Hamas political bureau, said in 2014 that "Hamas will not recognize Israel", adding "this is a red line that cannot be crossed".[27]Here twit:CharterMain article: Hamas CharterThe Hamas Charter (or Covenant), issued in 1988, outlined the organization's position on many issues at the time. It identifies Hamas as the Muslim Brotherhood in Palestine and declares its members to be Muslims who "fear God and raise the banner of Jihad in the face of the oppressors". The charter states "our struggle against the Jews is very great and very serious" and calls for the eventual creation of an Islamic state in Palestine, in place of Israel and the Palestinian Territories,[45] and the obliteration or dissolution of Israel.[78][79] The Charter also asserts that through shrewd manipulation of imperial countries and secret societies, Zionists were behind a wide range of events and disasters going as far back in history as the French Revolution. Among the charter's controversial statements is the following: "The time will not come until Muslims will fight the Jews [and kill them]; until the Jews hide behind rocks and trees, which will cry: O Muslim! There is a Jew hiding behind me, come on and kill him!"[44] The document also quotes Islamic religious texts to provide justification for fighting against and killing the Jews of Israel,[80] presenting the Arab–Israeli conflict as an inherently irreconcilable struggle between Jews and Muslims, and Judaism and Islam,[44] adding that the only way to engage in this struggle between "truth and falsehood" is through Islam and by means of jihad, until victory or martyrdom.[44] The Charter adds that "renouncing any part of Palestine means renouncing part of the religion" of Islam.[81] The charter states that Hamas is humanistic, and tolerant of other religions as long as they do not block Hamas's efforts.[82]A...You forgot to mention the part where they never actually adopted that charter. Current status of the CharterHamas leader Khaled Meshaal indicated to Robert Pastor, senior adviser to the Carter Center, that the Charter is "a piece of history and no longer relevant, but cannot be changed for internal reasons".[83] Hamas do not use the Charter on their website and prefer to use their election manifesto to put forth their agenda.[84][85] Pastor states that those who quote the charter rather than more recent Hamas statements may be using the Charter as an excuse to ignore Hamas.[83]British diplomat and former British ambassador to the United Nations Sir Jeremy Greenstock stated in early 2009 that the Hamas charter was "drawn up by a Hamas-linked imam some [twenty] years ago and has never been adopted since Hamas was elected as the Palestinian government in 2006".[86] Mohammed Nimer of American University comments on the Charter, "It's a tract meant to mobilize support and it should be amended.... It projects anger, not vision."[87]Ahmed Yousef, an adviser to Ismail Haniyeh, has questioned the use of the charter by Israel and its supporters to brand Hamas as a fundamentalist, terrorist, racist, anti-Semitic organization and claims that they have taken parts of the charter out of context for propaganda purposes. He claims that they dwell on the charter and ignore that Hamas has changed its views with time.[88] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moralist Posted July 14, 2014 Share Posted July 14, 2014 It's interesting to watch people become totally polarized by two completely antithetical views concerning the Jews. Israel has become the moral acid test for the whole World.Care to take the test?... Greg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikee Posted July 14, 2014 Share Posted July 14, 2014 It's interesting to watch people become totally polarized by two completely antithetical views concerning the Jews. Israel has become the moral acid test for the whole World.Care to take the test?... GregExcellent. Thank you Greg. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PDS Posted July 14, 2014 Share Posted July 14, 2014 "...nothing short of genocide".I don't know whether to laugh or cry.Nothing, facts- or morality- gets through to this person. It cannot occur to such brainwashees that everything those goddam Zionists have ever done, is an attempt to avoid (or in the last resort, limit) any and all deaths.The Israeli state must be truly blessed to be run by angels.A question for the death worshipper...Can we both agree with the Aristotelian truism that if one has the "will" and the "power," the deed/action is done?If so, do you then agree that Israel has the "power" to exterminate every single Palestinian within the borders of modern day Palestine?If you do agree, then why are there any left from your projected genocide?A...Israel has never gassed a single Palestinian. Not one. If Israel were determined to wipe out Palestinians altogether they would have done it 30 or 40 years ago. Genocide is not government policy in Israel. G-D forbid that it should be.Ba'al Chatzaf That's a simple but very interesting question. One thing before we go, Israel's motive is not the blind extermination of Palestinians for its own sake. Israel is interested in the land and resources that the Palestinians occupy, and they don't care what they have to do to get it, even if it means they have to take it by force.Israel relies heavily on the support of the US and the UN. If they just went in and straight up started slaughtering Palestinians, their leaders would face all sorts of opposition from the rest of the world. Everything from trade embargoes to being tried for war crimes. Obviously they want to avoid those scenarios, so they have to resort to a "round-about" way of achieving their goals.So, since you called me out for calling you out: how does one go about "genocide"** in a "round-about" way?**And please-- in anticipation of your knee jerk response-- don't insult your audience by going squishy on what the word "genocide" means. Words do have meaning, and "genocide" is one of the big ones, so to speak, especially when it comes to discussing the topic at hand. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dsaum Posted July 14, 2014 Share Posted July 14, 2014 Israel's real purpose in Gaza operation? To kill ArabsSince the first Lebanon war over 30 years ago, Israel's main strategy has been killing Arabs. The current atrocious war in Gaza is no different.http://www.haaretz.com/opinion/.premium-1.604653 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Stuart Kelly Posted July 14, 2014 Share Posted July 14, 2014 Here's a striking difference between Israel and Hamas.Three Israeli teens were murdered. One Palestinian.Hamas denied involvement but called the kidnappers and killers of the Israeli teens "heroes." (See here for just one story, but it was all over the news.)Israel arrested the Israelis who kidnapped and killed the Palestinian teen. From an NYT article today: Israel Intercepts Drone Sent From Gaza by Isabel Kershner, July 14, 2014:... on Monday, Israel prepared to file formal charges against three Jews in the kidnapping and killing of a Palestinian teenager earlier this month. The killing, an apparent act of revenge for the deaths of three young Israelis last month, touched off days of protests and further inflamed tensions in Jerusalem and in the Palestinian territories.Micky Rosenfeld, a police spokesman, said the suspects, a 29-year-old and two 17-year-olds, had admitted to abducting and killing Muhammad Abu Khdeir, 16, and had re-enacted the attack for investigators. Mr. Rosenfeld said they would be formally charged on Friday with kidnapping and premeditated murder. According to details released on Monday, the Palestinian youth was bludgeoned and set on fire. The identities of the suspects remained under a judicial gag order, partly, a judge wrote on Monday, to protect the rights of the suspects who are minors until they have formally been charged. There is lots of acrimony surrounding all this, but anyone who does not see the difference in these attitudes is not really interested in fairness and the rule of law, but instead conquest.Besides, Hamas's fundamental value and mindset toward Jews is outright bigotry.Michael Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Stuart Kelly Posted July 14, 2014 Share Posted July 14, 2014 Israel's real purpose in Gaza operation? To kill ArabsSince the first Lebanon war over 30 years ago, Israel's main strategy has been killing Arabs. The current atrocious war in Gaza is no different.http://www.haaretz.com/opinion/.premium-1.604653Haaretz is very left-wing.The reader comments to this article on the Haaretz website are the exact opposite to the text. Here is a screenshot:Michael Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BaalChatzaf Posted July 14, 2014 Author Share Posted July 14, 2014 Israel's real purpose in Gaza operation? To kill ArabsThe why drop leaflets warning civilians when and where the attack is coming and advising them to get out of the way?If one's purpose was merely to kill, one would mount a stealth operation.You are peddling a canard, so shame on you.Ba'al Chatzaf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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