Personal Statement about Plagiary


Victor Pross

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Personal Statement about Plagiary

I posted an article on OL called “The Mind-Body Dichotomy in David Kelley’s Philosophy” on August 14, 2006 and I have been accused of using material from an article by Diana Hsieh, “David Kelley's Mind-Body Dichotomy in Moral Judgment” published on Noodlefood on March 17, 2006, without giving due credit for it.

A little background to understanding my position on Kelley’s philosophy is called for: I have regularly attended Objectivist meetings and events for 14 years. Recently, before writing my article, I was at an OPAR study group meeting where the group discussed David Kelley and the mind-body dichotomy. This was also discussed at several other previous meetings and gatherings of Objectivists I attended. The Kelley issue has been a hot topic for years in most Objectivist circles that I have participated in—with clashing views taking one side or another. These often got quite heated and in discussing Kelley’s differences, the mind-body dichotomy was mentioned several times.

I read Hsieh’s article before writing mine. After the OPAR study group meeting, I saw Hseih’s article presented many of the ideas that we had been discussing and it was, to be fair, better organized than any other material on this, so I ended up using more information than I should have from a few parts, including quotes and technical terms. I am new to public writing as an intellectual and the citing of material, I have learned the hard way, is a must.

I agree that Hsieh should have been properly credited for the material I used. I unconditionally apologize to her for the careless lapse. I will take pains to see that this kind of negligence is not repeated.

Therefore, I want to state that I was made aware of the deletion of the article and thread in advance and that I fully agreed with it, especially as this affair has started to tarnish my reputation. Another reason that I am pleased with the deletion is that I started re-thinking my position due to the ensuing discussion that followed the post. I was called on to defend my position summing up the years of discussions and my own thinking regarding this very subject. This gave me pause and I wish to consider matters further before writing on this again.

Furthermore, due to my hectic lifestyle, I have allowed this bad habit of not crediting sources to take root in some of my writing. Recent events have shown me that this has grown way too much. It is being addressed and eliminated. If anyone ever becomes aware of a source that was not properly referenced in my past writing or my future writing, I would greatly appreciate it if they contacted me, please, so I can correct it immediately. So I do apologize to everyone in general for the commotion caused by my negligence and, by extension, the level of maliciousness of some of my accusers. Thank you.

Victor Pross

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When to Use the Term Plagiarism

Plagiarism involves a deliberate, willful attempt to fool people into believing you originated something when you did not.

The standards for plagiarism are somewhat different in an informal discussion group or in conversation than in a book or a formal article where you have time to check over everything and are not just winging it, shooting from the hip, tired, etc.

Sometimes you may be repeating something you learned almost verbatim while forgetting who you learned it from. That's how the subconscious works. The mind does not always footnote itself. Alternatively, sometimes Oists will repeat a point from Rand in almost the words Rand used and expect it not to be assumed that they originated it. Example: Mistakes of this magnitude are not made innocently. If I said this in a post or a conversation at a summer conference among Oists, I would expect readers or listeners to realize I was just reminding them of a well-known part of Oism, not to assume I was taking credit for originating it.

I'm sure all of us have fallen into parotting something we learned from someone as something we know ourselves without fully grasping from where the words came. Or have been in conversations and bull sessions discussing Objectivism and not stopping to credit our sources or footnote ourselves before opening our mouths because we are not writing for publication.

Some people are sloppier than others at this, need to be reminded about it a few times, etc. I haven't followed the Victor situation closely enough to be sure some of what I've said applies in this case, but the above principles need to be thought through quite carefully and context considered before using the very serious moral term "plagiarism". Like "sexual harassment" it is a term which definitely has an objective meaning.

But also can be misapplied or a label slapped on too quickly without carefully examining the context.

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Philip,

With all due respect, you have been hanging around too many over-moralizing Objectivists.

Plagiary, just like copyright infringement, can be done both because of a malicious intent to steal and because of other reasons. There are oodles of articles on this available online.

The important issue is to recognize when it was done, admit it, correct it (on all pertinent levels) and not repeat it.

That is the true principle. This works in reality just fine.

Edit - Incidentally, here is the OL policy statement about this.

Second edit - I have locked the thread to avoid insults being posted. If you wish to discuss this issue, please do it off line or elsewhere on the Internet. For doubts, please see the Objectivist Living Posting Guidelines and Legal Notice.

Michael

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  • 8 months later...

This message is to announce that Victor has had his posting privileges permanently canceled on OL. I normally do not make public statements of such things, and I have taken time for dust to settle to make this one, but this affair has been too public to resolve in the background.

The reason for the cancellation is that since the above announcement (in September 2006), Victor did not keep to what he wrote. He has been caught plagiarizing several times and has repeatedly not respected the posting guidelines. Some instances I have deleted and some I have allowed to remain (especially a few that were identified).

There were several reasons for allowing this to go on for as long as it did, but essentially the responsibility and decision were mine. I tried to encourage the value I perceived in the hopes that this would eventually eliminate the moral lapse. I did not succeed.

This is an isolated case. The ad hoc tolerance I extended to Victor does not mean that others will be entitled to the same leeway.

Once again, I apologize to OL members for the inconvenience. I cannot apologize for attempting something I believed in, but I can assure everyone that I have duly noted the result and this experience will not be repeated. Also, I would like to extend my gratitude to those who uncovered and exposed the acts of plagiary.

There are some small technical issues left over. They are being resolved one-by-one quietly in a low-key manner. I have opted for as discrete as possible resolution of this matter, as I have in other cases of dealing with those who have infringed OL posting guidelines.

However, this thread is no longer locked.

Michael

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Permanently...? :cry: :(

Kori,

I agree with Michael's decision. It's clear he wanted to extend the benefit of the doubt to Victor and work through it, but he has the reputation of his discussion board to protect and has to enforce policies to that end. I also agree with not having a long drawn out statement. Victor is a good guy and we'll miss him, but he has some issues to work through. I wish him luck.

Jim

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This message is to announce that Victor has had his posting privileges permanently canceled on OL.

Thanks for the making this announcement, Michael. I, like James, wish Victor the very best, especially in his relationship with Angie. I look forward to the eventual publication of his book.

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This message is to announce that Victor has had his posting privileges permanently canceled on OL. I normally do not make public statements of such things, and I have taken time for dust to settle to make this one, but this affair has been too public to resolve in the background.

The reason for the cancellation is that since the above announcement (in September 2006), Victor did not keep to what he wrote. He has been caught plagiarizing several times and has repeatedly not respected the posting guidelines. Some instances I have deleted and some I have allowed to remain (especially a few that were identified).

There were several reasons for allowing this to go on for as long as it did, but essentially the responsibility and decision were mine. I tried to encourage the value I perceived in the hopes that this would eventually eliminate the moral lapse. I did not succeed.

This is an isolated case. The ad hoc tolerance I extended to Victor does not mean that others will be entitled to the same leeway.

Once again, I apologize to OL members for the inconvenience. I cannot apologize for attempting something I believed in, but I can assure everyone that I have duly noted the result and this experience will not be repeated. Also, I would like to extend my gratitude to those who uncovered and exposed the acts of plagiary.

There are some small technical issues left over. They are being resolved one-by-one quietly in a low-key manner. I have opted for as discrete as possible resolution of this matter, as I have in other cases of dealing with those who have infringed OL posting guidelines.

Michael,

Good riddance to Victor Pross. This has left a very bad taste in my mouth.

--Brant

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Michael,

I can't disagree with decision. You have given Victor many chances and he has continuing to violate your policies.

Can we find out if he and Angie tie the knot?

Edited by Chris Grieb
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  • 1 month later...

Here is a post I made on another thread. I am putting it here for easy reference.

Tomorrow I am going to resume my cleanup of the plagiarisms. Before getting to that, I want to write a post here that I am going to copy in The Garbage Pile where I intend to put facts and miscellaneous comments about this issue—when I find such pertinent.

Over on Meetup, there is a silly little thread Pross made on July 6 called Belittlement at OL. He complained that this post (No. 262) of mine on OL caused him so much pain and suffering from the belittlement he received that he started plagiarizing as some kind of lashing out at OL.

Here are the facts.

Pross's plagiarism started on Solo Passion way before he came to OL. (This is what I can point to. I suspect the habit of plagiary started much earlier.) The reason Pross left Solo Passion was over a spat about his plagiarizing an article by Joe Rowlands (which I even excused at the time). I know of at least one other plagiarism there, an article about Lenny Bruce, because it was repeated here (see the post by Ellen Stuttle here and the article here on OL).

While on Solo Passion, Pross lashed out repeatedly at OL without any provocation. He didn't need any "belittlement" in order to do that. Barbara Branden made a post in July 2006 giving a selection of the obnoxious hostile phrases he had written gratuitously about her (see here). I received an equal measure of insults back then and so did OL (I don't have the time to look them up right now, but they are there for anyone who wishes to research them.) There were plenty of "slaps at OL" (Pross's phrase) and me before he even became a member of OL or really knew who I was.

The photo that supposedly caused this guy so much outrage and pain was one where I gave him a humorous Dali mustache that tied in on several levels comedy-wise with what we were discussing (especially Dada art). Instead of mental anguish, his immediate reaction was to chime in the banter. He liked the photo so much that he repeated it in the following post (No. 263) with the text below:

Now that is a work of art. :laugh:

Why the laughing smiley if he took offense? That happened in January 2007. In May, Pross's fancy for that photo was such that he copied it again and included a much more humorous text (to Kori) and even cooed at Angie. See the text below from Post 6 on a thread in the humor section of OL:

GOD EXISTS AFTER ALL! Tootsie, an extraordinary event has occurred! Remember the ugly monstrosity that I once was? Well look at me now! I’m restored! Touched by the hand of God and reinstated to my youthful beauty! And now I have an artist mustache too boot! Oh, Angie is going to have a good time with that! ;]

Does this sound like someone who is offended with the photo?

Pross wasn't offended in January (and our off-line relationship at the time was such that he would have complained if he were), and he wasn't offended in May. But now in July, he is offended? I simply can't take that as a serious complaint.

I only mention this because there are some people actually falling for the belittlement on OL nonsense and believe that Pross's plagiarisms are a reaction to that. All this proves is that people will believe anything if you repeat it long enough. Well, the facts are here for those who are genuinely curious, and more facts on plagiarisms will be presented each day starting tomorrow. Let the gullible believe what they will.

Incidentally, Dragonfly has hilariously disfigured photos of Kat and me before as banter. See here. I even discussed this with Pross back then since he is a caricaturist.

EDIT: This guy is unbelievable. He has just edited his belittlement post on Meetup to tone down the whining and admit that he joined in the banter as if this came from him spontaneously, as per the time stamp of July 12. Anything goes with him to rewrite reality.

EDIT on July 15, 2007: I found another couple of posts where another image of Pross was distorted as banter by William Scherk and he chimed in the banter. See here and here. See the quotes below from those posts:

Will, I love it! We have a satire artist here, do we? ;] (Okay, sorry for being a snot in that one post). Oh, this is a thing of beauty! Wait till Angie gets a load of how I really look! :laugh:
It is rather ironic that a caricature artist--who used his art to cut others down to size--would find himself caricatured! Of course, as I have said, caricature art can be used as a tool for biting satire or playful benevolence. This photoshop executed distortion (I hesitate to call it ‘caricature’) was perhaps intended as satire--to cut me down--but I got a real kick out of it instead. :turned:

Michael

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  • 3 weeks later...

On September 6, 2006, LW Hall made a post to this this thread that I deleted. I sent the text to him by email, so I was able to recover it:

Victor,

This is why it is hard to take you serious:

I read Hsieh’s article before writing mine. After the OPAR study group meeting, I saw Hseih’s article presented many of the ideas that we had been discussing and it was, to be fair, better organized than any other material on this, so I ended up using more information than I should have from a few parts, including quotes and technical terms. I am new to public writing as an intellectual and the citing of material, I have learned the hard way, is a must.(my bold)

Do you understand what the term "rationalizing negative behavior" means? If not, then reread what you wrote above and it may come to you.

L W

I have extended an unconditional apology to LW here for deleting this.

Michael

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