What Goes in the Garbage Pile


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What Goes in the Garbage Pile

We presently have a problem on OL that is akin to a hacker attack. As many of you know, in July 2006, OL was hacked and our databases destroyed. This led to a creative recovery, restoration of the almost all of the posts (a small portion were lost) and highly enhanced security. We now face another need for a creative solution.

We had a highly active poster, Victor Pross, who made a total of 2,297 posts within the course of about a year (he joined in June 2006). We had to cancel his posting privileges for repeated plagiarism. Recently Dan Edge has graciously revealed the extent of Pross's plagiary by uncovering a huge amount of his posts and identifying the original sources, placing text comparisons side by side. Unfortunately, it looks like he only scratched the surface and this promises to be a long-term endeavor that will gradually involve others. Actually, this has already started.

The person responsible for this mess is me. I backed Pross several times when he was attacked for plagiarizing and tried to nudge him in the right direction off-line. I was attempting to draw out the good qualities I perceived and create conditions for moral learning. But I provided him with a public platform against the continued advice of people I respect. I had no idea of the depth of his problem. If I had perceived it, I would not have allowed it to develop as it did. Regardless, I obviously failed miserably at achieving my goal. I was wrong and once again I apologize to all for the inconvenience. It will not be repeated.

This situation has created a unique problem. The obvious solution was to delete all of Pross's posts. Unfortunately that would make hash out of the threads where he interacted with others. A lot of thought and hard work went into many of the discussions by OL posters and it is not fair to them to throw away their work or mutilate their discussions beyond intelligibility. At the very least, the historical record should be preserved. Yet having a plagiary-contaminated thread alongside other threads creates a feeling of moral discomfort. I know it bothers me.

Also, there is a problem with a subforum for Pross's art that we created to showcase his caricatures. There were several discussions in that subforum. We made it invisible to the public once we canceled his posting privileges since we do not see any point in honoring one who did not honor us. But this also came with the problem of being unfair to the posters who contributed to the discussions.

Now we have a garbage pile where all of these threads will be stored. Posters can have access to their work, but they also can be reminded readily that their discussions in this section were not made with a person of good faith. Where possible, I will split off the contaminated sections and put them here. Where this is impossible, I will move the entire thread here. Not all of Pross's posts will go here—only threads where plagiarism is detected or suspected.

I want to emphasize to the posters of goodwill that their work is not garbage at all. On the contrary, there is great value in many of their posts. However, the discussions were spoiled by being interaction with Pross's plagiarized material. In no way was this their fault, but these contaminated discussions need to be at a separate place from clean ones.

That is predominantly what will be stored here right now.

As time goes on, should more types of forum garbage accumulate, we now have a place for it.

EDIT: Discussions with important posts will no longer go in here (please read the discussion in the posts below to see the development of the idea) except the Art subforum. But garbage will.

Michael

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What Goes in the Garbage Pile

[snip]

Also, there is a problem with a subforum for Pross's art that we created to showcase his caricatures. There were several discussions in that subforum. We made it invisible to the public once we canceled his posting privileges since we do not see any point in honoring one who did not honor us. But this also came with the problem of being unfair to the posters who contributed to the discussions.

Now we have a garbage pile where all of these threads will be stored. Posters can have access to their work, but they also can be reminded readily that their discussions in this section were not made with a person of good faith. Where possible, I will split off the contaminated sections and put them here. Where this is impossible, I will move the entire thread here. Not all of Pross's posts will go here—only threads where plagiarism is detected or suspected.

I want to emphasize to the posters of goodwill that their work is not garbage at all. On the contrary, there is great value in many of their posts. However, the discussions were spoiled by being interaction with Pross's plagiarized material. In no way was this their fault, but these contaminated discussions need to be at a separate place from clean ones.

[snip]

Michael,

I'm not understanding WHICH threads you're moving material from into the "garbage pile":

ALL threads on which Pross posted, or just those originally in the section showcasing his caricatures?

I emphatically hope you do not mean the former.

Ellen

___

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Ellen,

Obviously the latter, but I also mean the former where there is a great deal of plagiarism. Where it is minor or there are few posts by Pross, I will not move the thread.

It kind of centralizes these contaminated discussions and gets the focus off of Pross in the other forums. He's had enough free advertising among respectable surroundings for misdeeds. But I will leave a link in the original forum.

As this grows, it will be a good thing.

btw - The latter threads are already here. Click on the link that says "Former art subforum" when looking at threads in "The Garbage Pile."

Michael

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MSK,

Is there any way that you can bulk-insert a notice at the beginning of each of Victor's posts which would warn readers that Victor has been caught in multiple instances of plagiarism, and that any of his posts could include content stolen from others?

J

Edited by Jonathan
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Ellen,

Obviously the latter, but I also mean the former where there is a great deal of plagiarism. Where it is minor or there are few posts by Pross, I will not move the thread.

Michael,

I'm afraid I'm still not finding your intentions pellucid. You mean the latter, except also the former where there's a great deal of plagiarism? Every significant thread on which Victor Pross participated is rife with his plagiarism. All the big art threads, including for instance the one on Kandinsky; all the threads arguing about the foundations of Rand's theory of ethics. These were major threads, on which a number of us invested serious work. I am worried about not being able to find the good stuff, including links to art works.

Please, just leave those threads where they are and in the order in which they are, and just include a notice such as Jonathan suggested in Victor's posts, or delete the text from Victor's posts if you feel you must, but please don't mess up other people's being able to find what they wrote and to track their conversations with people besides Victor. To do so truly would be punishing the innocent to pay back the guilty.

Ellen

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Edited by Ellen Stuttle
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I know Michael has been busy trying to clean up this plagiarism mess as I have been busy with work and other projects. I came home early today to find this...."garbage pile" and Michael's aleep...

I'm not too keen on the garbage pile idea as because of the sheer volume of posts and threads that are involved. I have a suspicion that we have just hit the tip of the iceberg. I don't want to put a boatload of threads into a section called garbage pile because of the intellectual dishonesty of one individual. It is not fair to the intellectually honest to have their posts in a garbage pile. It also draws even more attention to Victor. It's like giving him his own forum. I think we can do something better, but I am not sure what it is just yet. We appreciate the feedback and also hope that our users and/or Invision can help us find and implement a creative solution to the Pross issue.

My suggestion for now is that people create fresh threads and/or write articles, use the ignore function, and report posts to let us know when they find suspicious threads or posts. Information on how to use these functions are in the tech support area. If you would like me to build any specific tutorials in Photoshop, drop me a message.

I am hoping we can think up a better resolution than isolating the tainted threads and I certainly don't want this to turn into a witch hunt or lynching. I just want to get the stolen goods off the premises. This episode certainly has been somewhat like the hacker attack. We need to rebuild and carry on. We've done it before. We'll do it again. It's a summer ritual, it seems.

Kat

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~ Geez! I leave this forum for a week, and look what happens! Didn't realize this...prob...with Vic grew into a mountain since my last comments to him about this elsewhere.

~ All-said-and-done, his disrespect is basically not giving credence to others from whom he lifted (too?) many quotes as a 'springboard' for subject discussion, hence his disrespect for them, right?. To clarify, we're not talking his using such as his 'answers' to questions, (he seemed pretty good at spontaneous responses), hence his disrespect for us, correct? However, his using such as a presentation of 'his' views, without clarifying that he was merely agreeing with unreferred to others does disrespect the others AND us, correct? THIS latter is what it's all about?

~ Such a wasted shame. He seemed one of the few here I frequently agreed with (guess that means there's lottsa others I don't know who agree with me.)

~ Oh, Vic, Vic: ya didn't learn from an other forum you were called on this about, and you ignored warnings here.

~ Sayonara.

LLAP

J:D

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MSK:

~ I think you're handling this as best can be. I don't envy you your obvious committment to keeping this forum 'on-the-straight-and-narrow' whilst still leaving open all possible communication-opportunities; especially doing so without egregious insults (not to mention maybe some deservable) for distracting icing on a difficult cake.

~ Indeed, this very thread you started re explaining one facet of your moderating was probably needed, generally speaking.

~ Re your conundrum about 'What to do...NOW?' I know nothing about running such a place, but, if I may suggest: is there a way to 'flag', in a simple way (say a red-asterisk) a thread or poster as identified for being a...'problem'? If so, add one more thread in OBJECTIVIST LIVING CORNER about special 'flags.' --- If not, dunno what to suggest (other than change the 'Garbage Pile' name to something else, like 'Past Poster Problems', or some such.)

MTFBWY

LLAP

J:D

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Is there any way that you can bulk-insert a notice at the beginning of each of Victor's posts which would warn readers that Victor has been caught in multiple instances of plagiarism, and that any of his posts could include content stolen from others?

Jonathan,

My dear darling Kitten supplied the solution. The following text is now in Pross's signature line and is present on all of his posts.

NOTE FROM ADMINISTRATOR: This poster was banned for repeated plagiary. Because of the sheer volume of his posts, the present one may contain plagiarism that is unknown to us. Please report any plagiarized text you find so we can edit the post.

Kat and I also moved him from "Canceled" category to "Banned." Now he cannot log on or use any OL features at all. He can use the forum as a normal lurker (or if he tries to use an alias). Ironically, he was originally consigned to "Canceled" so as to not call attention to the issue. That was before we were aware of the extent of the problem.

Some fancy dollar signs appeared under his name with the edit. I will work on trying to get rid of them.

This solution has caused me some short-term comfort since I am going to travel with Kitten to LA in a couple of days and will not be too active for about a week.

I will still keep the Garbage Pile. I like this idea and some threads definitely belong in it, but now, there is no need to put major discussions here or graft off parts of them.

Michael

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My dear darling Kitten supplied the solution. The following text is now in Pross's signature line and is present on all of his posts.
NOTE FROM ADMINISTRATOR: This poster was banned for repeated plagiary. Because of the sheer volume of his posts, the present one may contain plagiarism that is unknown to us. Please report any plagiarized text you find so we can edit the post.

[snip]

I will still keep the Garbage Pile. I like this idea and some threads definitely belong in it, but now, there is no need to put major discussions here or graft off parts of them.

Michael

Bravo. Brilliant, Kat. That seems to me an excellent solution.

Michael, yes, my strong concern was over not being able to find the material which is worth finding in the (many) affected threads. I didn't know that links would still work if a thread was moved. That's reassuring.

Even so, the idea of moving major threads to a section called "Garbage Pile" isn't...appetizing? (ha) Some of the threads -- the ones you've already put there -- I agree are appropriately put there. But I'd much prefer seeing the others stay where they are. In any case, the issue which was worrying me was the thought of not being able to find material I might want to find.

Ellen

___

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My dear darling Kitten supplied the solution. The following text is now in Pross's signature line and is present on all of his posts.

NOTE FROM ADMINISTRATOR: This poster was banned for repeated plagiary. Because of the sheer volume of his posts, the present one may contain plagiarism that is unknown to us. Please report any plagiarized text you find so we can edit the post.

[snip]

I will still keep the Garbage Pile. I like this idea and some threads definitely belong in it, but now, there is no need to put major discussions here or graft off parts of them.

Michael

Bravo. Brilliant, Kat. That seems to me an excellent solution.

Michael, yes, my strong concern was over not being able to find the material which is worth finding in the (many) affected threads. I didn't know that links would still work if a thread was moved. That's reassuring.

Even so, the idea of moving major threads to a section called "Garbage Pile" isn't...appetizing? (ha) Some of the threads -- the ones you've already put there -- I agree are appropriately put there. But I'd much prefer seeing the others stay where they are. In any case, the issue which was worrying me was the thought of not being able to find material I might want to find.

Ellen

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I'd call it "The Plagiarism Pile."

--Brant

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You could always edit the posts and put that it is plagiary in big red letters above each post that contains plagiary/in the start of a thread that Victor plagiarized. I've kept my mouth shut mainly because there wasn't much needing to be said and I don't know anything you guys don't.

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Jeff,

I have to be quick as I am traveling. The problem is the huge quantity of posts.

We were not left with the option of selecting so why should we extend it? To be clearer, I am sure there is some original writing among the plagiarisms, but the infiltration and mix are so great that it is going to take quite a while to separate it all. Also, the plagiary was not limited to articles or posts in specific threads. It is to be found everywhere Pross posted. Justice or convenience to OL was not considered when the urge to plagiarize came on. Yet we are being called on by a few to extend special consideration to him.

We have to clean up this mess. Of course there will be posts that contain no plagiarism, but will contain a disclaimer that there might be because of an automatic software function. All I can say is, "Tough" right now. That is the best I can do in light of the magnitude of the problem. It may not resolve his problem, but it resolves mine.

If there is some real concern about this, nothing stops him or anyone from setting up a free blog, copying all of his posts on OL that do not contain plagiary and pasting them on the blog (with links if desired), and complaining that they are unjustly identified on OL. Maybe that seems like a lot of work?...

Michael

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