Geert Wilders, the bravest man in Europe.


Richard Wiig

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That's how you win this war, anything else will lose it..

Like bombs and bullets lost the second world war??? I agree, it's certainly an ideological battle, but existentially there are concrete values to defend, such as the lives of loved ones. Bombs and bullets are a damn useful tool when needed in defence of concrete values(such as to send Irans nuclear facilities into oblivion)and to recoil from that because it might hurt someones feelings and turn them against us would be suicidal. What those people who might get angry need to learn is that we ain't gonna take it. Live by the sword, die by the sword. Adopt a peaceful individual rights based existence, or suffer the consequences. The choice is theirs to make.

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Geert Wilders like the Islamists use the democratic values like freedom of speech as a means to get into power, and then try and then would like to take that right away from others.

The only way to defeat them is not through bombs, it's a war of ideologies and the people in between are the target.. You need to show how your ideals are better and how the Islamist's ideas are both Islamically and logically incorrect and full of hate.. You need to be a good example and you can't do so by bombing everyone.. If you show the people that your ideas are better then many of the Islamists will see it too and will defect, there will always be a hardcore minority that still remains and fights because they can't be convinced of anything.. But once you have the majority on your side they'll fight against those hardcore extremists..

That's how you win this war, anything else will lose it..

LM,

If this is not a disingenuous appeal, I think it's a good one.

Despite it also being a little naive.

The West is (for the predictable future) going to bumble along making both silly and terrible mistakes - governments doing things for "the good of the people", or because it is the "will of the people", "we know what's best", etc, etc..

I think you are setting the bar too high for "us", and expecting too much.

Only in a handful of nations is there some recognition still that the State is not in the business of morality, but in the business of rule by constitutional law. Individual rights, as opposed to 'human rights.' Can an Islamic nation achieve that?

"If you show the people that your ideas are better..." is finely put, and I agree, wholeheartedly.

But let's not forget that those very ideas are NOT new in the West, or elswhere. They have been obvious to anyone who wants to see - which is how you came to libertarianism, I imagine.

So where are all the converts?

Good point, however.

No, it's not enough, though. I think the time is fast passing by when Muslims, in numbers, should seek out those ideas for themselves - insist on them, and begin to live them.

Too many (and I'm talking about moderate Muslims I've met), continue to blame the West (and Israel, btw) for their misfortunes.

The victim mentality must end; if you want examplars to point to, all successful countries became that way through large-scale self-responsibility, and by not measuring themselves against others.

Tony

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LM,

If you want a decent idea about violent Islamists--an idea within the religious universe--to mention to the Muslims on the fence you meet, here's one.

Allah is not a bully or a thug.

These terrorists commit blasphemy by making Allah a bully, and by making themselves the thugs to carry out what they think The Master Bully wants.

That doesn't sound like the wishes of Allah, even from my distance. But on the supernatural level, it does sound like the wishes of another--one who deceives at that.

Michael

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That's how you win this war, anything else will lose it..

Like bombs and bullets lost the second world war??? I agree, it's certainly an ideological battle, but existentially there are concrete values to defend, such as the lives of loved ones. Bombs and bullets are a damn useful tool when needed in defence of concrete values(such as to send Irans nuclear facilities into oblivion)and to recoil from that because it might hurt someones feelings and turn them against us would be suicidal. What those people who might get angry need to learn is that we ain't gonna take it. Live by the sword, die by the sword. Adopt a peaceful individual rights based existence, or suffer the consequences. The choice is theirs to make.

I live by the sword (or canon, or bomber, or nuclear device) and my enemies die by the same. Who won the Pacific War of 1941-1945?

Simple rule for surviving on Earth:

Cherish your family and friends and defenders, destroy your enemies. It is a sure fire winning rule.

Ba'al Chatzaf

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I live by the sword (or canon, or bomber, or nuclear device) and my enemies die by the same. Who won the Pacific War of 1941-1945?

Simple rule for surviving on Earth:

Cherish your family and friends and defenders, destroy your enemies. It is a sure fire winning rule.

Ba'al Chatzaf

Before you destroy your enemy you should actually know who they are first. It appears you're still struggling with that part.

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That's how you win this war, anything else will lose it..

Like bombs and bullets lost the second world war??? I agree, it's certainly an ideological battle, but existentially there are concrete values to defend, such as the lives of loved ones. Bombs and bullets are a damn useful tool when needed in defence of concrete values(such as to send Irans nuclear facilities into oblivion)and to recoil from that because it might hurt someones feelings and turn them against us would be suicidal. What those people who might get angry need to learn is that we ain't gonna take it. Live by the sword, die by the sword. Adopt a peaceful individual rights based existence, or suffer the consequences. The choice is theirs to make.

I live by the sword (or canon, or bomber, or nuclear device) and my enemies die by the same. Who won the Pacific War of 1941-1945?

Simple rule for surviving on Earth:

Cherish your family and friends and defenders, destroy your enemies. It is a sure fire winning rule.

Ba'al Chatzaf

Obviously, you two would be happier someplace else, such as a federal prison. There, you would find your moral philosophies put into practical terms that you could at once appreciate in the abstract and then yet practice fully,

Myself, I am a trader. I make deals with aliens. I see that as the libertarian ethic, as the Objectivist Morality.

"Commercial" (trader) concepts from Jane Jacobs's "Systems of Survival."

* Shun force

* Come to voluntary agreements

* Be honest

* Collaborate easily with strangers and aliens

* Compete

* Respect contracts

* Use initiative and enterprise

* Be open to inventiveness and novelty

* Be efficient

* Promote comfort and convenience

* Dissent for the sake of the task

* Invest for productive purposes

* Be industrious

* Be thrifty

* Be optimistic

I hereby challenge Baal and Infidel to declare that they actually served in the military or police and are not merely wannabes and poseurs.

"Guardian" (enforcer) concepts

* Shun trading

* Exert prowess

* Be obedient and disciplined

* Adhere to tradition

* Respect hierarchy

* Be loyal

* Take vengeance

* Deceive for the sake of the task

* Make rich use of leisure

* Be ostentatious

* Dispense largesse

* Be exclusive

* Show fortitude

* Be fatalistic

* Treasure honor

The choice is yours, Guardian or Trader.

Edited by Michael E. Marotta
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Before you destroy your enemy you should actually know who they are first. It appears you're still struggling with that part.

Actually, in a broader sense, the enemy is collectivism. Islam is but one of the collectivist ideologies at war with reason and individual rights, but it's an especially militant one and it requires some serious attention.

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Myself, I am a trader. I make deals with aliens. I see that as the libertarian ethic, as the Objectivist Morality.

"Commercial" (trader) concepts from Jane Jacobs's "Systems of Survival."

Is this how you deal with people who are out to get your ass?

I grew up knowing there is a target (not of my choosing) painted on my back.

That is how it is to be Jewish. The Muslims are out to get my pink Jewish ass. They have said so many times and I believe them.

I am willing to be polite and constructive with neutrals, but I believe in exterminating my enemies just as the L-RD commanded the Israelites to deal the the Amalekites., Blot their name out from under the Sun. The failure to do so had led to the defeat and scattering of Jews around the world.

There is a pasuch from the Talmud, San Hedrin 72-a : If he comes to kill you, rise up early and slay him first. Good advice. It served the Israelis well in 1967 and failure to do so almost lead to the defeat of Israel in 1973. The U.S. heeded the advice in dealing with the Japanese in the Pacific War. We burned their women and children and we won. And that is all that matters. The last one standing is the Winner.

To get back to what you were saying: We traded with the Japanese, we had dealings with their diplomats and the bastards bombed Pearl Harbor without a warning. So much for you "good advice".

Ba'al Chatzaf

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The Muslims are out to get my pink Jewish ass. They have said so many times and I believe them.

I am willing to be polite and constructive with neutrals, but I believe in exterminating my enemies just as the L-RD commanded the Israelites to deal the the Amalekites., Blot their name out from under the Sun.

MEM's reference to the Commerce Syndrome and the Guardian Syndrome is most interesting: from my read of Jacobs, no person can be one or the other exclusively -- indeed she urges that we understand the demands of each ethical system in context, and suggests we can learn to apply the ethics of one and the ethics of the other -- without giving birth to 'monstrous moral hybrids.'

Jacobs: “...If any single precept can be called a key or central in guardian morality, it is Be Loyal. Governments regard treason as the most wicked crime, bar none.”

-- MEM, our Ba'al is subject to Guardian Syndrome in all things National or Ethnic. As a former warrior (in missile tech, I believe) and a proud atheist Jew, his loyalties are to his family, his tribe and his nation, in that order. Jewish history provides the guide for his war thought, and as we all here know, he reverts to the fourth century BCE whenever comes a time to Blot Their Name. Them, the Muslims, The Them Folk tribe want to destroy him, so he thinks, so rivers of blood or speckles of dust can be the only solution to conflict. As of yet he has not murdered any Muslim, nor issued a serviceable death warrant for the world's Bad People, so we must simply hope that Ba'al operates under the Commerce Syndrome whenever bloody punishments and nuclear carpet-bombings are not the subject.

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-- MEM, our Ba'al is subject to Guardian Syndrome in all things National or Ethnic. As a former warrior (in missile tech, I believe) and a proud atheist Jew, his loyalties are to his family, his tribe and his nation, in that order. Jewish history provides the guide for his war thought, and as we all here know, he reverts to the fourth century BCE whenever comes a time to Blot Their Name. Them, the Muslims, The Them Folk tribe want to destroy him, so he thinks, so rivers of blood or speckles of dust can be the only solution to conflict. As of yet he has not murdered any Muslim, nor issued a serviceable death warrant for the world's Bad People, so we must simply hope that Ba'al operates under the Commerce Syndrome whenever bloody punishments and nuclear carpet-bombings are not the subject.

Some of the guidance systems using my algorithms have killed thousands of the enemy. My body is unfit for combat, but not so my brains.

I am proud of every enemy corpse I helped to make. The pen is mightier than the sword and the algorithm is mightier than the bullet.

Ideas build and ideas kill.

Ba'al Chatzaf

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I am proud of every enemy corpse I helped to make. The pen is mightier than the sword and the algorithm is mightier than the bullet.

And how do you feel about the many innocent civilian corpses that are due to the algorithms that you've created? Proud of that too?

He needs to take a journey through hell, like Dante.

--Brant

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I am proud of every enemy corpse I helped to make. The pen is mightier than the sword and the algorithm is mightier than the bullet.

And how do you feel about the many innocent civilian corpses that are due to the algorithms that you've created? Proud of that too?

Collateral damage. One of the less happy aspects of modern war. In any war there will be collateral damage. One cannot allow sentimentality to divert one of the main objective which is to Win The War.

The U.S. Killed over one million Japanese non-combatants in the Pacific War. So sorry. Maybe the Japanese should have thought of that before they bombed Pearl Harbor.

In a word, collateral damage does not bother me one little bit.

Ba'al Chatzaf

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Collateral damage. One of the less happy aspects of modern war. In any war there will be collateral damage. One cannot allow sentimentality to divert one of the main objective which is to Win The War.

The U.S. Killed over one million Japanese non-combatants in the Pacific War. So sorry. Maybe the Japanese should have thought of that before they bombed Pearl Harbor.

In a word, collateral damage does not bother me one little bit.

Ba'al Chatzaf

I'm sure that's how Al-Qaeda felt in launching the 9/11 attacks.. They wanted to attack the US Economy and Military in a move so daring but they didn't have missiles or jet fighters and therefore decided to use passenger jets to do it, they knew innocent people would be killed but thought that if they were lucky.. Their attacks would cause the Americans to be so angry by it, that instead of just targeting Al Qaeda through targeted attacks on a small scale that they'd attack Afghanistan as a whole and invade the country.. That would then make it easier for Al Qaeda to attack US Soldiers like they'd wanted to do all along.

It would also draw the US Empire into a battle which would last so long that it would drain the US economy and morale and cause the US to waste a lot in Afghanistan, just like the Soviet Union did.. It may even cause the US Empire to collapse, at the very least the end result would be that Americans lose their blood lust for war and stop trying to dominate and control all of the countries in the region, perhaps it would even stop the US government from supporting dictatorships in the region.

Sure there were lives lost of innocent civilians in the US but to Al Qaeda, they were just collateral damage in a war that they felt justified in fighting..

You seem rather similar..

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Collateral damage. One of the less happy aspects of modern war. In any war there will be collateral damage. One cannot allow sentimentality to divert one of the main objective which is to Win The War.

The U.S. Killed over one million Japanese non-combatants in the Pacific War. So sorry. Maybe the Japanese should have thought of that before they bombed Pearl Harbor.

In a word, collateral damage does not bother me one little bit.

Ba'al Chatzaf

I'm sure that's how Al-Qaeda felt in launching the 9/11 attacks.. They wanted to attack the US Economy and Military in a move so daring but they didn't have missiles or jet fighters and therefore decided to use passenger jets to do it, they knew innocent people would be killed but thought that if they were lucky.. Their attacks would cause the Americans to be so angry by it, that instead of just targeting Al Qaeda through targeted attacks on a small scale that they'd attack Afghanistan as a whole and invade the country.. That would then make it easier for Al Qaeda to attack US Soldiers like they'd wanted to do all along.

It would also draw the US Empire into a battle which would last so long that it would drain the US economy and morale and cause the US to waste a lot in Afghanistan, just like the Soviet Union did.. It may even cause the US Empire to collapse, at the very least the end result would be that Americans lose their blood lust for war and stop trying to dominate and control all of the countries in the region, perhaps it would even stop the US government from supporting dictatorships in the region.

Sure there were lives lost of innocent civilians in the US but to Al Qaeda, they were just collateral damage in a war that they felt justified in fighting..

You seem rather similar..

LM:

Precisely what my understanding is of Osama's overall game plan and we stepped right into it and are ensnared on the flypaper precisely as planned.

We are spiraling in debt. Essentially we have lost our will, focus and mythology.

We are lost like a giant blinded cyclops stumbling in the worlds valley, accidentally stepping on a village or two and raising our club to the sky proclaiming victory.

Adam

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LM:

Precisely what my understanding is of Osama's overall game plan and we stepped right into it and are ensnared on the flypaper precisely as planned.

We are spiraling in debt. Essentially we have lost our will, focus and mythology.

We are lost like a giant blinded cyclops stumbling in the worlds valley, accidentally stepping on a village or two and raising our club to the sky proclaiming victory.

Adam

Yes exactly, and what is worse is that by the actions that the US has taken over the last 50 years in supporting dictatorships and monarchies, the US sold out all of its values.. All of the things that made the US great and have a moral high ground were there and have now been lost.. The murder of Osama bin Laden was the nail in the US Government's coffin.

What happened America?

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LM:

Precisely what my understanding is of Osama's overall game plan and we stepped right into it and are ensnared on the flypaper precisely as planned.

We are spiraling in debt. Essentially we have lost our will, focus and mythology.

We are lost like a giant blinded cyclops stumbling in the worlds valley, accidentally stepping on a village or two and raising our club to the sky proclaiming victory.

Adam

Yes exactly, and what is worse is that by the actions that the US has taken over the last 50 years in supporting dictatorships and monarchies, the US sold out all of its values.. All of the things that made the US great and have a moral high ground were there and have now been lost.. The murder of Osama bin Laden was the nail in the US Government's coffin.

What happened America?

In a word, we have been sucked into the vortex of the Forever War. The United States and Americans do not have the balls the Romans did. We are unfit to pursue a Pax Americana. We just do not have the cojones for it. We should have taken the advice of George Washington and avoided entangling alliances. Not because it is moral, but because it is practical.

Our downfall was this: 1. We won WW2 almost intact with relatively small losses. 2. In doing so we acquired a nuclear monopoly which lasted four years, but made us think we were unbeatable. 3. We then took on the mantle of Anti-Communism world wide and turned our quarrel with the Soviet Union into a Mannechean Armageddon. 4 The segued into a quasi imperialist mode of keeping the peace by playing troublesome regimes off one against the other. The British were good at this, we are not. The result; The Forever War which we are going to lose.

Ba'al Chatzaf

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In response to LM's question; America ain't over yet:

Oh please.. What a load of BS.

That is outrageously stupid.

It is okay to rape your maids? BS.. Rape is a crime where the rapist is punished, the victim is supposed to be treated like a victim and not blamed for the crime against them..

What she's describing is not Islam, rather it's the cultural tendencies of the region that not only occur within the Muslim community, but also occur within the Christian community too and other communities in the region..

Infidel, if you really believe this rubbish then I really feel sorry for anyone associated with you.

And you claim that 'America ain't over yet'?

It's too late.. It was over for America when Americans had defecated on their Founding Fathers by not being vigilant in protecting the values that their nation was founded on and sold the soul of their nation and gave into the military industrial complex and the international bankers who provided Americans with a cocoon of ignorance, stupidity and laziness to wrap themselves in whilst both committed unspeakable crimes in their name. America could never be defeated except by the negligence of its own people.. This has definitely occurred..

So what are you going to do America? Are you going to take it back? Can you even be successful at it if you try? I sure hope so otherwise there are going to be several hundred million Americans that wake up one day soon and realize that they've lost it all and have been swindled by these vermin that will just move onto their next victim without remorse like a rapist..

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And America is not dead, despite the almost glee from you, and the doom and gloom from others, a doom and gloom that you are more than happy to feed. So far as America means liberty, it will never die, which was the point in my posting Nonie Darwish. Ayn Rand is right about evil being impotent; it will never overcome the desire for liberty and justice.

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In response to LM's question; America ain't over yet:

Oh please.. What a load of BS.

That is outrageously stupid.

It is okay to rape your maids? BS.. Rape is a crime where the rapist is punished, the victim is supposed to be treated like a victim and not blamed for the crime against them..

What she's describing is not Islam, rather it's the cultural tendencies of the region that not only occur within the Muslim community, but also occur within the Christian community too and other communities in the region..

Infidel, if you really believe this rubbish then I really feel sorry for anyone associated with you.

And you claim that 'America ain't over yet'?

It's too late.. It was over for America when Americans had defecated on their Founding Fathers by not being vigilant in protecting the values that their nation was founded on and sold the soul of their nation and gave into the military industrial complex and the international bankers who provided Americans with a cocoon of ignorance, stupidity and laziness to wrap themselves in whilst both committed unspeakable crimes in their name. America could never be defeated except by the negligence of its own people.. This has definitely occurred..

So what are you going to do America? Are you going to take it back? Can you even be successful at it if you try? I sure hope so otherwise there are going to be several hundred million Americans that wake up one day soon and realize that they've lost it all and have been swindled by these vermin that will just move onto their next victim without remorse like a rapist..

We shall see what happens. As you dudes like to say In'sha'allah.

It is possible, but not overwhelming likely the the U.S. will "muddle through" the next decade. We shall see. As God wills it.

We survived the Civil War, so anything is possible.

Ba'al Chatzaf

Ba'al Chatzaf

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And you claim that 'America ain't over yet'?

It's too late..

LM,

I'm not sure what you mean by this.

I moved here after 32 years in Brazil. America looks fine to me. There's a lot of media stuff about doom and gloom, and the job market ain't that good, but I have yet to see widespread hunger, etc.

The opposite of 9% unemployment is 91% employment.

Does 91% mean "over" to you?

On the intellectual front, there's a Tea Party movement raising public awareness of the Progressive attempt to replace the code of the Founding Fathers from early education on. The very fact that this is now in the mainstream news and is an item of serious debate in current elections shows me that it is not "over."

I have no idea what you mean by "America is over." It sounds effective as a hot-button phrase, but I can't find any conceptual referents for it that are valid. So far, in my thinking, these are just empty words that reflect a smidgen of contention and little else.

It's like someone saying, "Islam is over."

Cognitively, it means nothing. In normative terms, it's on the level of sticking your tongue out at someone.

Michael

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LM,

I'm not sure what you mean by this.

I moved here after 32 years in Brazil. America looks fine to me. There's a lot of media stuff about doom and gloom, and the job market ain't that good, but I have yet to see widespread hunger, etc.

The opposite of 9% unemployment is 91% employment.

Does 91% mean "over" to you?

On the intellectual front, there's a Tea Party movement raising public awareness of the Progressive attempt to replace the code of the Founding Fathers from early education on. The very fact that this is now in the mainstream news and is an item of serious debate in current elections shows me that it is not "over."

I have no idea what you mean by "America is over." It sounds effective as a hot-button phrase, but I can't find any conceptual referents for it that are valid. So far, in my thinking, these are just empty words that reflect a smidgen of contention and little else.

It's like someone saying, "Islam is over."

Cognitively, it means nothing. In normative terms, it's on the level of sticking your tongue out at someone.

Michael

Michael the America of today is a mere shell of the America the Founding Fathers helped to create.. The shell still looks the same, but the yolk has become rotten on the inside because there has been too many years of prosperity that has placated Americans.. Thomas Jefferson was right when he said:

"God forbid we should ever be 20 years without such a rebellion. The people cannot be all, & always, well informed. The part which is wrong will be discontented in proportion to the importance of the facts they misconceive. If they remain quiet under such misconceptions it is a lethargy, the forerunner of death to the public liberty."

He also stated that:

"The Tree of Liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants"

This hasn't happened in a long time.. And so now we have the Military Industrial Complex, The International Banking Cartels, The Federal Reserve etc running the nation and as a result, the US no longer sincerely stands for the ideals of the Constitution nor the Declaration of Independence.. It has been hijacked and this is the reason why I stated that Americans need to take the US back from the hands of those tyrants.. Until this happens America is and will continue to be "over"..

I don't find this to be a good thing, it's a horrible thing for Americans to be so ignorant and blind to the horrors and atrocities committed in their name, and they will soon find themselves as slaves, just like Jefferson warned. What's worse is that unfortunately we make ourselves criminally negligent when we allow the governments elected to represent us to go and murder millions of innocent people who didn't deserve it at the bidding of the military industrial complex and the international bankers.

Then we wonder why people in other countries hate us and take great offense to when they attack us after begging us for years to cease our government's behavior that harms them? That above all is the worst part.. You know this very clearly Michael when looking at the US Government's role in Latin America and how many Latin Americans have suffered greatly at the hands of US Foreign Policy in keeping dictators and tyrants in power and supporting them while Americans slept soundly at night, unaware of what was happening in their name..

I will let a pious muslim speak for me:

http://www.translati...i-want-sex.html

Perhaps you should listen to what he said if you're letting him speak for you.. At no point did that mention maids, it was talking about slaves.. I also take issue with the fact that the person who posted the video put less than 50% of the actual comments from the person speaking, it seems to me he was going into further explanation towards the end as to what the slavery entails, which would have benefited you if you truly intend to learn.

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Michael the America of today is a mere shell of the America the Founding Fathers helped to create.. The shell still looks the same, but the yolk has become rotten on the inside because there has been too many years of prosperity that has placated Americans.. Thomas Jefferson was right when he said:

"God forbid we should ever be 20 years without such a rebellion. The people cannot be all, & always, well informed. The part which is wrong will be discontented in proportion to the importance of the facts they misconceive. If they remain quiet under such misconceptions it is a lethargy, the forerunner of death to the public liberty."

He also stated that:

"The Tree of Liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants"

LM:

Some crazy Russian lady created the parable of the Oak tree in the first chapter of Atlas. It clearly supports your argument, unfortunately.

The Oak Tree represents the United States. He describes the tree, "Its roots clutched the hill like a fist with fingers sunk into the soil, and he thought that if a giant were to seize it by the top, he would not be able to uproot it, but would swing the hill and the whole of the earth with it."

This passage aptly describes the financial and technological power of the United States. The reference to giants is interestingly coincidental, or perhaps not. Perhaps the reference is purposeful warning us of the return of the Nephilim. This is also the second reference to lightning in the book. The first describes, "High on the side of a tower there was a crack in the shape of motionless lightning, the length of ten stories." The second reference to lightning splits the oak tree in half.

Eddie remembers childhood summers on the Taggart estate with the Taggart children, for whom he now works. During Eddie's childhood, a hundred-year-old oak tree stands on a hill over the Hudson River. At age seven, Eddie feels safe in the tree's strength. Then it is struck by lightning, breaking it in half, revealing an empty shell. The trunk was only an empty shell; its heart had rotted away long ago; there was nothing inside – just a thin gray dust that was being dispersed by the whim of the faintest wind. The living power had gone, and the shape it left had not been able to stand without it.

The above section is a compilation of critical analyses of the parable in Atlas.

Adam

I know Shayne will not cede that this parable is an argument, but of course it is.

Edited by Selene
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