the fake obamafainter...

[KacyRay]

MSK,

I know you aren't proposing the following non-sequiter:

"The image of a fainting woman behind Obama would benefit Obama politically... therefore it must have been faked."

I know that can't possibly be what you're saying. I am absolutely convinced that your grasp of logic is better than this.

So I am going to ask the obvious question that, apparently, has eluded every single Objectivist in this thread...

What evidence do you have that this was faked?

[Guyau]

. . .

First off... hello again!

. . .

Welcome back.

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

MSK, I know you aren't proposing the following non-sequiter: "The image of a fainting woman behind Obama would benefit Obama politically... therefore it must have been faked." I know that can't possibly be what you're saying.

Kacy,

Hello stranger.

If you know that your non-sequiter is not what I am saying and can't possibly be, why treat it as if it were? And ask for evidence at that? Is this some kind of rhetorical game?

You actually did not address my point. I stated it clearly--twice.

Michael

[Brant Gaede]

Ah, Kacy. You've been revived. Unexpected consequence, but waiting for your thanks. Carol's been holding down the fort for you but being a Canadian she's too nice to get our juices flowing--aside from hockey, that is. It's not that young lady was fake but that she was standing behind a fake and for at least 30 minutes. If you rip her out of that fake context she was in and just look at her it looks real enough.

--Brant

what do they do with fainted Marines--toss them overboard?

[KacyRay]

Hehe... good to see all of you!

Stephen Boydstun - Yes, on our way home. I don't know if you've ever contemplated jumping out of a ship and just swimming the last 5-600 miles, but I'm right about there.

 

MSK, I know you aren't proposing the following non-sequiter: "The image of a fainting woman behind Obama would benefit Obama politically... therefore it must have been faked." I know that can't possibly be what you're saying.

Kacy,

Hello stranger.

If you know that your non-sequiter is not what I am saying and can't possibly be, why treat it as if it were? And ask for evidence at that? Is this some kind of rhetorical game?

You actually did not address my point. I stated it clearly--twice.

Michael

 

Eh, I think it was more of a cultural cliche. ("I know you didn't just throw that trash on the ground!!" - meaning "I can't believe you just threw that trash on the ground") I sometimes forget how badly those things translate over written discourse.

I guess I missed the point you were trying to make... my comment was in response to the apparent general acceptance the the lady falling out was faked.

Occam's razor, man. Seriously... what is the more likely explanation, that a pregnant woman who had likely been standing in place out in the sun since well before the cameras were rolling, and whose stamina probably wasn't what it ought to be, "fell out" momentarily and had to catch herself... or that it was some clumsily scripted event done for political gain that was so poorly executed that anyone could see right through it ("anyone", of course, being limited to Freepers, Tea Partiers, and everyone at info wars)?

The confirmation bias here is so thick it could be cut with a knife.

Brant - When Marines fall out, they are usually guided to the back of the formation, tended to by a Corpsman, and then teased relentlessly by their peers once the ceremony is complete. It's a hoot!

So... does anyone actually have evidence that the faint was faked?

[moralist]

Has it occurred to a single one of you to ask for evidence that the fainting was fake?

It's not fainting in itself. It's the faked scripted setup. Did you watch the video? The evidence is the behavior of the female on her right. She was clearly communicating with someone and taking instructions and she even nudged her friend to let her know when it was time to faint. Although her arm was around her friend in advance to steady her, when her friend "fainted" she never even looked at her. Clearly it was not an unexpected event, for if it was she would have at least looked at her friend.

Here's the recurring scripted pattern...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aUipvrMYw9g

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

I guess I missed the point you were trying to make...

Kacy,

You sure did. Still do. And from the sounds of it, you are not interested and don't like those who are.

The confirmation bias here is so thick it could be cut with a knife.

I can't speak for others, but this is an incorrect characterization of my mental process here. My approach is more like impatience with bullshit.

Seriously. When a serial liar like Obama (see YouTube for oodles of videos with Obama's contradictory statements side-by-side--but I can find a few if you don't think they exist) lies again, then someone gets outraged and asks for proof, I don't feel the discussion is worth having. Did he lie that particular time? Who gives a crap? The guy's a liar. Believe him at your own risk. The important thing to notice is that this is the kind of thing he always lies about.

That's not confirmation bias. There is no testing for results. That's a moral judgment.

So with the fainting lady, the problem with Obama is the sheer number of times the fainting show has been present in his speeches as compared to the sporadic times with other politicians. It would be an interesting project for someone to actually count them. I don't mean people who faint per se. I mean people who faint with Obama calling out about it in the middle of his speech and doing his shtick.

Has it occurred to a single one of you to ask for evidence that the fainting was fake? Has that thought ever even crossed your mind?

Actually, I did ask for evidence and it did cross my mind. You ignored it. See here:

Here's a mission for any ambitious investigative journalist, even the conspiracy wing. Find a list of people who have fainted at Obama events and the people who were with them at the time. Then look into their personal finances and see whether they have received some unexpected boon from somewhere. Then follow the money.

I wonder where that trail would end, I wonder.

And I still wonder.

With the magic pregnant fainting lady, I think it's a bit too early. Obama's people are careless when they get too arrogant, but I doubt they would be that careless. But it's not too early for her predecessors. People can look into her accounts once the dust settles.

Michael

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

Well...

There's another possibility. This could be something his staff does and Obama doesn't know anything about it. Here's a montage of Obama's CYA pattern on MSNBC:

Michael

[dldelancey]

I was miserable and sick my entire pregnancy, and there were at least two events I had to make it through while my friends were hovering around me alert to my condition and yet trying desperately to act natural and occassionally covertly communicating with me and with each other. I imagine that we looked exactly like the folks in this Obama video.

However, what never happened during either of those events, was someone standing directly in front of me with his back to me who couldn't possibly have seen me swooning, turn to assist me. That lady was not in Obama's line of sight at all, and there was very little commotion made. Between the woman holding her around the waist, and the man behind steadying her shoulders, she barely even tottered. How, then, did Obama know anything was going on outside of his line of sight?

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

Deanna,

LOL... I was waiting for someone to mention that.*

Obviously Obama has eyes in the back of his head or telepathic powers. And such perfect timing...

After all, he's Obama.

Michael

* EDIT: That's a fudge. I was going to mention it and totally blew it. I forgot. I'm glad you did.

[Brant Gaede]

I was miserable and sick my entire pregnancy, and there were at least two events I had to make it through while my friends were hovering around me alert to my condition and yet trying desperately to act natural and occassionally covertly communicating with me and with each other. I imagine that we looked exactly like the folks in this Obama video.

However, what never happened during either of those events, was someone standing directly in front of me with his back to me who couldn't possibly have seen me swooning, turn to assist me. That lady was not in Obama's line of sight at all, and there was very little commotion made. Between the woman holding her around the waist, and the man behind steadying her shoulders, she barely even tottered. How, then, did Obama know anything was going on outside of his line of sight?

He possibly had a hearing device in his ear.

It's been lies and fakery since he was born.

The first affirmative action, PC President, media-leveraged into office. Now the media are slowly turning on the lame duck as they begin to gin up on his replacement and cover their tracks and responsibility.

--Brant

[KacyRay]

moralist: I cannot watch video. It has taken me roughly 2 hours just to get this page to load well enough to even respond. I'll be in full high-speed LAN mode in a couple weeks, but not right now.

 

MSK:

 

"Did he lie that particular time? Who gives a crap? The guy's a liar. Believe him at your own risk. The important thing to notice is that this is the kind of thing he always lies about."

 

But that's what this whole thread was about - an unchallenged assumption that a lady fainting was scripted. I was the first to come along and challenge it, and I find that hard to imagine on a forum where reason is supposed to dominate blind acceptance.

 

"So with the fainting lady, the problem with Obama is the sheer number of times the fainting show has been present in his speeches as compared to the sporadic times with other politicians."

 

Number of times I've heard of anyone fainting while standing near Obama = 0.

Number of times I've seen it reported in the news = 0.

Number of times its been mentioned on OL (that I've seen) = 0

 

"It would be an interesting project for someone to actually count them. I don't mean people who faint

per se

. I mean people who faint with Obama calling out about it in the middle of his speech and doing his shtick."

 

And I'd be willing to bet large amounts of money that the number of people who faint with Obama calling out about it is roughly proportionate to the number of people who fall out while standing in military formation, high school band formation, or any other place where people stand for long periods and lock their knees out.

 

What I'm saying is that even if you can dig up video of people falling out when standing around listening to Obama - that in itself is not an extraordinary thing. It happens. I'm telling you, I've seen the darkness begin creeping in myself. I had to shake my head and blink really hard to keep myself from fading out.

 

"Actually, I did ask for evidence and it did cross my mind. You ignored it."

 

You didn't ask for evidence that the lady faked it. You asked for data on how many times people faint. Not even remotely the same thing.

 

I don't know... maybe when I see the video I'll change my mind. But nothing anyone has said so far sounds in any way unusual. Even the "eyes in the back of his head" line isn't very convincing.... when you're at a podium and people are focused on you, it isn't very difficult to perceive when the focus has shifted to something strange going on right behind you. Plus, as Brant said... he probably had a device in his ear. None of this is out of the ordinary.

 

Anyway, what provoked my participation in the conversation was that I saw, once again, a completely unsupported assumption going totally unchallenged.

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

Kacy,

If you can't see videos, you are arguing only from your bias, making gross errors and being entrenched in them.

MM put a video on this very thread with scene after scene of the Obama fainting person shtick.

Sorry. You're just factually wrong about too much that people can see right in front of them on the videos right now to take this any further.

I do, however, suggest you do some research. You can do Google searches, right? They might prove enlightening.

Or not...

Michael

[KacyRay]

The only argument I've made is that no one was challenging the validity of the "fake faint" claim. It was a legitimate observation then, and it's a legitimate observation now.

I've said that I'm not averse to changing my mind if the video compelled me to do so. Not my fault I can't examine the evidence in the form its being presented. Believe me, I'd love to be able to watch streaming video. Hell, I'd love to be able to open a webpage in less than 60 seconds.

[Brant Gaede]

But that's what this whole thread was about - an unchallenged assumption that a lady fainting was scripted. I was the first to come along and challenge it, and I find that hard to imagine on a forum where reason is supposed to dominate blind acceptance.

Not precisely. Samson Corwell raised the issue in #22. Some posts dealt with the faking issue not at all. I think you're the victim of your poor Internet access.

--Brant

[Robert Baratheon]

I was the first to come along and challenge it

This is not true. I expressed skepticism that Obama had prior knowledge, and I hypothesized that the recurring episodes are some unknowable combination of lower-level staged events and legitimate cases. Samson Corwell also expressed skepticism.

Anyway, what provoked my participation in the conversation was that I saw, once again, a completely unsupported assumption going totally unchallenged.

Not true.

[KacyRay]

Brant -

It's likely.

I can't tell you how frustrating it is. Most of the time, the page will begin loading... and then only half the page will load.

I am so looking forward to November.

[KacyRay]

It occurs to me that I have neglected to mention that I saw the incident on TV a few days ago (right after it happened) here on the ship. There's a TV in my office and we get AFN (Armed Forces Network), which plays a mix of CNN/MSNBC/Fox News.

I didn't scrutinize the video or pay much attention to it. It seemed like such a mundane incident that it never would've occurred to me that I would have even been discussing it a few days later. I never would've imagined anyone claiming it was fake. It was no different than what I've seen a dozen times in real life.

I don't say as a point of argumentation - just for the sake of full disclosure.

[moralist]

I was miserable and sick my entire pregnancy, and there were at least two events I had to make it through while my friends were hovering around me alert to my condition and yet trying desperately to act natural and occassionally covertly communicating with me and with each other. I imagine that we looked exactly like the folks in this Obama video.

However, what never happened during either of those events, was someone standing directly in front of me with his back to me who couldn't possibly have seen me swooning, turn to assist me. That lady was not in Obama's line of sight at all, and there was very little commotion made. Between the woman holding her around the waist, and the man behind steadying her shoulders, she barely even tottered. How, then, did Obama know anything was going on outside of his line of sight?

It's highly likely that he was reading the same signals coming from the front of the audience that the female next to the fake obamafainter was nodding her head to. There was no sound coming from behind him. He even anticipated turning on cue. The event was highly scripted.

Here's the same basic template used again and again... (sorry, couldn't get it to embed)

"Obama and the Fake Fainting Fainters Who Faint"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LeXOHqaYVzM

Greg

[Brant Gaede]

It occurs to me that I have neglected to mention that I saw the incident on TV a few days ago (right after it happened) here on the ship. There's a TV in my office and we get AFN (Armed Forces Network), which plays a mix of CNN/MSNBC/Fox News.

I didn't scrutinize the video or pay much attention to it. It seemed like such a mundane incident that it never would've occurred to me that I would have even been discussing it a few days later. I never would've imagined anyone claiming it was fake. It was no different than what I've seen a dozen times in real life.

I don't say as a point of argumentation - just for the sake of full disclosure.

Full disclosure means telling us about the time you fainted.

--Brant

and did you fake it?

[Brant Gaede]

Brant -

It's likely.

I can't tell you how frustrating it is. Most of the time, the page will begin loading... and then only half the page will load.

I am so looking forward to November.

Right. That's when all the sailors and Marines rush off the ship into the nearest Internet cafe.

--Brant

I was in the army--before the Internet--so I went to the, uh, "Cough! Cough!"

[Robert Baratheon]

There are certain situations in life where we are at a heightened risk of being manipulated. Purchasing a car from a car dealer is one such situation. Being approached by someone with a tale of woe in a parking lot is another. I would argue that scripted, televised political events are a third such situation, including everything that is said and happens in them.

Kacy is correct that we have no evidence this incident was faked - either by the President or by the woman - so it's premature to state with certainty that it was inauthentic. But where Kacy goes off the rails is taking it a step further by admonishing and insulting people simply for being suspicious. Some baseline suspicion in these situations is healthy, and Kacy's operation at the extreme accepting end of the spectrum places him at risk. This incident got a lot of play on progressive blogs and on leftist 24-hour-news segments, and as the compilation videos posted here prove, this seems to be a strangely frequent occurrence when the President is speaking. His rinse-and-repeat "fainter script" doesn't necessarily lend itself to either conclusion, but it's important to recognize that the routine itself is a strategy intended to evoke certain emotions in the viewers.

I think Kacy has it half right, and the people whom Kacy calls "conspiracy theorists" have it half right. We shouldn't jump to conclusions when evidence is lacking, but we should be skeptical by default and especially so when a party has an informational advantage and something to gain by manipulating us.

[KacyRay]

Full disclosure means telling us about the time you fainted.

--Brant

and did you fake it?

Well, I have to say... it was certainly an event in my mind. I can't imagine it would interest anyone else, but if you (like me) find the inner workings of psychology fascinating, it might.

I have always wondered what it would be like to faint. I couldn't imagine it happening to me.

Anyhow, I was standing in a formation when I was a young Marine. I had stood in many, and never even came close to falling out. I couldn't understand how it happened to other people.

It was hot. My mind wandered. I wasn't listening to what the speaker was saying. I was lost in my own thoughts. I noticed the "tunnel" effect start to happen, and I thought "Holy shit! This is what it's like!" and I just let it keep happening... then I felt my knees buckle slightly and I realized "Holy shit... it's actually happening."

I shook my head, blinked my eyes hard, my mind snapped back into focus, and that was that. The last thing I wanted was to be the guy who fell out.

I should add... I was in high school band for a few years and I saw it happen time and time again, to folks in my band as well as in others.

That's why I say... it happens so frequently in ordinary situations that the fact that it happens around the President should be no surprise.

In fact, if you're familiar with protocol, you know that it is customary for all parties to be in place well before the President arrives. This means that in most cases, people are positioned and standing by for what could easily be 15 minutes (if he's on time) and maybe longer, if he's late. This is before he even starts his speech!

In light of this, I would say that falling out is to be expected. In fact, I would consider it extraordinary if people *didn't* fall out from time to time.

So at least you can understand where I'm coming from when I say I'm not easily sold on this "choreograph" thing.

(I know... I still need to see the video)

[moralist]

There are certain situations in life where we are at a heightened risk of being manipulated.

It is impossible to be manipulated as long as a person is aware of the deceit operating in others, as well as their own need to believe in the deceit operating within them.

Greg

[moralist]

So at least you can understand where I'm coming from when I say I'm not easily sold on this "choreograph" thing.

(I know... I still need to see the video)

Ah, no wonder!

When you see it,

you'll understand.

Greg