My personal opinion part 4- Affirmative Action

[Selene]

Louisiana is doing some really forward-thinking stuff with education (their adoption of Common Core notwithstanding). I don't have time at the moment to go looking for links, but you might google a bit to see what you can find.

DD:

I would believe that "forward thinking stuff with education" is due to Bobby

Jindale, who I really like, except for the fact that his speaking voice sucks,

and his education person?

Maybe his wife's efforts?

Supriya Jindal became First Lady of Louisiana when her husband, then

Congressman Bobby Jindal, was sworn in as Governor of Louisiana on January 14,

2008. Mrs. Jindal currently serves as the youngest first lady in the nation and is the only First Spouse in the country that holds a degree in engineering.

First Lady Supriya Jindal

As a mother of three young children, Supriya has taken an interest in issues

regarding childrens education and enjoys encouraging children to build a strong foundation in math and science - no matter what path they hope to pursue in

life. In addition to visiting classrooms and participating in hands-on science

experiments with students, Mrs. Jindal has established a non-profit foundation, The Supriya Jindal Foundation for Louisianas Children, that is working to

modernize Louisiana classrooms by bringing interactive technology into as many

Louisiana classrooms as possible.

A...

[dldelancey]

Louisiana is doing some really forward-thinking stuff with education (their adoption of Common Core notwithstanding). I don't have time at the moment to go looking for links, but you might google a bit to see what you can find.

DD:

I would believe that "forward thinking stuff with education" is due to Bobby

Jindale, who I really like, except for the fact that his speaking voice sucks,

and his education person?

Maybe his wife's efforts?

Supriya Jindal became First Lady of Louisiana when her husband, then

Congressman Bobby Jindal, was sworn in as Governor of Louisiana on January 14,

2008. Mrs. Jindal currently serves as the youngest first lady in the nation and is the only First Spouse in the country that holds a degree in engineering.

First Lady Supriya Jindal

As a mother of three young children, Supriya has taken an interest in issues

regarding childrens education and enjoys encouraging children to build a strong foundation in math and science - no matter what path they hope to pursue in

life. In addition to visiting classrooms and participating in hands-on science

experiments with students, Mrs. Jindal has established a non-profit foundation, The Supriya Jindal Foundation for Louisianas Children, that is working to

modernize Louisiana classrooms by bringing interactive technology into as many

Louisiana classrooms as possible.

A...

Nope. That stuff was happening before Bobby came along and rammed Common Core down our throats. And I actually still supported him in spite of that, until recently when he did a 180 and decided hey, I'm not such a big fan of Common Core after all, let's ditch it now that it's too late to actually do so. Sorry, but I've soured on him. He weaseled because CC is no longer popular and he's setting himself up for a presidential run in the future. I dislike Common Core, but I dislike weasels even more.

[Derek McGowan]

• In one of your posts you mention the common practice of an employer choosing candidates based on their college credentials. You see those employers as doing a disservice to the people who don't have elite university educations on their resumes. I would argue that those employers do no one a disservice except themselves. There doesn't need to be any change in education in this respect. There needs to be a change in the minds and practices of those who are hiring and those who are looking to be hired. The notion that every job and every person requires a university education is recent and unfounded, and even a bit collectivist.
• Allowing parents to choose the K-12 schools their child attends would go a long way to addressing the lack of competition issue you bring up. You don't think your child has enough competition at school? Fine, send them to a different one. You don't even have to privatize education to make that happen.
• Charter schools, magnet schools, and the like. When the community supports them, they work. And they look great on a resume for the next school the child wants to attend.

point 1. I agree but since you cant wave a wand and get employers to understand that, then the problem remains.

point 2. I agree, except what happens when all the schools in an area are low performers (remember I'm not picking specifically on poor performing schools Im saying that if the schools that one chooses from are below average, or even if they are in the 40% percentile, the students there will, in general and by definition, have lower peer competition and lower teacher support and thus lower average skills than a student in a higher performing environment/school)

point 3. I agree as well but all areas don't have them and where they are, not all communities support them, thereby you still have tons of lost potential from students who, by no choice of their own, were raised in under achieving environments.

ps. JTS's mindset is entirely too focused on the grand idealistic picture of government and education. He is not seeing or responding to the reality that happens at ground level with the thousands, if not millions, of wasted potentials that may have done great things if not for a shoddy academic environment, which had nothing to do with choices they made but institutionalized academic impoverishment followed up with work place segregation based on that academic impoverishment. Almost like your first point, sure in an ideal world people would wake up and do x, but in reality thats not what people do, therefore I feel that something should be done about it. Others may feel that nothing should be done about it or that we should just throw empty slogans from our soap boxes....

[Selene]

point 2. I agree, except what happens when all the schools in an area are low performers (remember I'm not picking specifically on poor performing schools Im saying that if the schools that one chooses from are below average, or even if they are in the 40% percentile, the students there will, in general and by definition, have lower peer competition and lower teacher support and thus lower average skills than a student in a higher performing environment/school)

point 3. I agree as well but all areas don't have them and where they are, not all communities support them, thereby you still have tons of lost potential from students who, by no choice of their own, were raised in under achieving environments.

Derek:

On a scale of 0% through to 100,% where would you draw the line of contributory negligence

and incompetence for unions, from Custodians through Cafeteria workers through Teachers

and Administrators to the problems you describe above?

0% being no culpability to 100% being complete culpability.

Also, where would parents fit in on that continuum [<<<<is that spelling correct?]?

Thanks.

A...

[Derek McGowan]

Derek:

On a scale of 0% through to 100,% where would you draw the line of contributory negligence

and incompetence for unions, from Custodians through Cafeteria workers through Teachers

and Administrators to the problems you describe above?

0% being no culpability to 100% being complete culpability.

Also, where would parents fit in on that continuum [<<<<is that spelling correct?]?

Thanks.

A...

I know you read my opening post but I have to refer you back to it. I would say that as it stands now I think the number would be somewhere around(and I am specifically speaking of schools in the black areas, not of schools in general) 70%. That means you can blame the current generation on the current lackadaisical attitude around academics. Those who say that performing well is "acting white" deserve what they get. Those parents who'd rather watch reality TV than get engaged in their children's education deserve what they get. But I outlined all that in my opening post (clarified it in my response to you, post #15) and I also made clear that that is not the whole picture. The whole picture contains a history of purposed and premeditated disruption of learning by whites toward blacks which has created the environment that we see today. I would not be intellectually dishonest to act like the current generation is somehow 100% victims and all the blame is on others, but it would also be intellectually dishonest to simply ignore the fact that if you take a specific area, basically force a group of people to live there, and for generations reduce budgets, disallow access to proper teaching materials, steer better teachers away, etc which compounded over decades has produced a deeply ingrained attitude about failure that is hard to dig out of.

If you have generation after generation of students going to blighted schools (which I have to emphasize were systematically blighted by those in control, re-entering that school system as below average teachers, still having reduced budgets and producing further below average students, who continue the cycle that they are basically trapped in, then it is hard to ignore that fact today, even if those schools now receive equal resources.

Students who are trying hard to achieve something now, are operating in a system that has been made into a minefield by previous generations. They deserve some kind of credit.... in my opinion

[Derek McGowan]

but in referring to my point 3 from post #28, I'm not saying that any student should be allowed into an college of his/her choosing just because they are black. I say that they should deal with the situation that they are presented with (those communities that don't support education) work hard in spite of it and when they graduate in the top 1% of their class, even if top 1% means that they are below average vs. students from backgrounds that gave them access to education that benefited from generations of positive endowment, they should get to go to the universities that will push them to truly fulfill their potential and not have them stuck in the same cycle as the the students who think that an education is for the birds

[dldelancey]

What do you consider "generations of positive endowment?" For instance, granted you know little about me personally, but from what you know, would you assume that I have benefited from "generations of positive endowment?"

[Derek McGowan]

What do you consider "generations of positive endowment?" For instance, granted you know little about me personally, but from what you know, would you assume that I have benefited from "generations of positive endowment?"

I apologize for my wording, I actually have an extremely hard time trying to find the right words to express what I'm trying to say (thats why I advocate for having a brain chip that would allow humans to communicate pure thoughts and emotions without the need of language) real time conversations with me involve lots of blank time as I am trying to find the right words... and they could be simple words such as "exercise"

Anyway, I didn't mean positive as in more is given above the status quo line to one group or another. What I put in my opening post and what I thought I have been communicating in my subsequent responses is more of a situation where one group received the status quo-- thats all fine and dandy, nothing to blame, or apologize for, but then you have another group who was legislatively discriminated against when it comes to resources. Thats why I used the chess example in my response to Selene. If everyone has all the required pieces and they all follow the rules, then there is no fault when one losses, that is merely the fact that the winner understood the positions better. But if the loser has to operate from a starting point of having fewer pieces on the board than its not surprising that that person has a losing record. This was never supposed to be an argument that one group received more pieces to start with, which would be the positive benefits that I misspoke about, but one where one group has received less peices and has to compete against those who have a full board

[dldelancey]

No need to apologize, Derek. I didn't read anything into what you said. I just want to understand your perspective better. I also tend to have long pauses in my conversations as I work out what I want to say. That's common among introverts, and I'm definitely an introvert. That negative side of that is that sometimes by the time I'm ready to speak, the conversation has moved on without me. Ah well.

Back to the subject. To use your chess analogy, we would have to make assumptions about whom supplies the board and the pieces, no? It seems that you're assuming the players simply show up and sit down to play with a board and pieces that are already there, and that one of those players by chance or by design has been seated on the side that has fewer pieces. I'm okay with that assumption. If I were that person, I would be asking myself the following.

• Am I good enough at chess to win anyway?
• What is the potential value of winning?
• What is the risk of losing?
• Is there something else I could do that offers more value and less risk that I could do instead?
• Might my opponent and I come to an agreement between the two of us that either increases my potential gain or decreases my potential risk?

That thought process does not require me to depend on some external entity. There are two people involved, me and my opponent. I need not influence anyone except those two people.

[Wolf DeVoon]

Derek, respectfully, Brown v. Board of Education (1954) was a long time ago. Trillions in welfare spending, coupled with a positive duty of equal opportunity in Executive Orders 8802, 9981, 10479, Title VII of the Civil Rights Act of 1964; affirmative action Executive Orders 10925, 11246, 11625, Rehabilitation Act of 1973; and the preferential college admission quotas upheld by Regents v Bakke (1978) and Grutter v Bollinger (2003) which dramatically penalized whites and Asians in favor of less qualified blacks, haven't significantly moved the needle.

Per student spending in Camden, Trenton, Washington DC, New York City and

Chicago are double the national average and have the lowest graduation rates.

It ain't about whitey any more.

[Selene]

Derek:

Have you had any direct dealings with any Black Muslims?

A...

[Derek McGowan]

Derek, respectfully, Brown v. Board of Education (1954) was a long time ago. Trillions in welfare spending, coupled with a positive duty of equal opportunity in Executive Orders 8802, 9981, 10479, Title VII of the Civil Rights Act of 1964; affirmative action Executive Orders 10925, 11246, 11625, Rehabilitation Act of 1973; and the preferential college admission quotas upheld by Regents v Bakke (1978) and Grutter v Bollinger (2003) which dramatically penalized whites and Asians in favor of less qualified blacks, haven't significantly moved the needle.

Per student spending in Camden, Trenton, Washington DC, New York City and

Chicago are double the national average and have the lowest graduation rates.

It ain't about whitey any more.

But Wolf, I'm not advocating for more money to be spent at the k-12 level. I'm not asking for more money to be spent at all. I'm not even asking for change at the k-12 level. All I'm saying is that if someone in a minority area shows potential over their peers, even if those results don't stack up that well against the average student in a historically better school system , they should be allowed to get a fair shake at a qualified university level education. That's all I'm saying. Black schools should not get extra money or privileges but those who graduate in the top 1% should be able to get a try-out spot to a better life through training in a top college. If they don't make it in that college then oh well, but it's wrong (to me) if those students are 25-50% beyond their peer group and they still are only able to go to community college when it is confirmed that better schools offer better connections and training

[Derek McGowan]

Derek:

Have you had any direct dealings with any Black Muslims?

A...

There is a Nation of Islam mosque near my mothers house. I went once... that's about it ....

[Selene]

Derek:

One of the reasons that I asked is that I have a lot of respect for Malcom X who I heard speak numerous

times in the early 60's in Harlam and he was [preaching] black capitalism.

{pay close attention at 2:40 and 4:10

OOPS

Malcolm X on Capitalism and Socialism

By The Organizer

In his last year of life, before his assassination on February 21, 1965, Malcolm X’s political views evolved towards anti-capitalist positions. “You can’t have capitalism without racism,” he said.

"[in] my opinion, the young generation of whites, Blacks, browns, whatever else there is, you’re living in a time of revolution, a time when there’s got to be change," Malcolm told a group of British students in 1964. "People in power have misused it, and now there has to be a change, and a better world has to be built, and the only way it’s going to be built is with extreme methods. I, for one, will join in with anyone–I don’t care what color you are–as long as you want to change this miserable condition that exists on this earth."

He continued: "[it is] incorrect to classify the revolt of the Negro as simply a racial conflict of Black against white, or as purely an American problem. Rather, we are seeing today a global rebellion of the oppressed against the oppressor, the exploited against the exploiter."

Asked what he thought was responsible for race prejudice in America, he responded: “Ignorance and greed. And a skillfully designed program of miseducation that goes right along with the American system of exploitation and oppression.”

In an interview with the Young Socialist he stated: “It is impossible for capitalism to survive, primarily because the system of capitalism needs some blood to suck. Capitalism used to be like an eagle, but now it’s more like a vulture and can only suck the blood of the helpless. As the nations of the world free themselves, then capitalism has less and less victims, less to suck, and it becomes weaker and weaker. It’s only a matter of time in my opinion before it will collapse completely.”

When he was asked what kind of political system he wanted, he said:

“I don’t know. But I’m flexible. As was stated earlier, all of the countries that are emerging today from under the shackles of colonialism are turning toward socialism. I don’t think it’s an accident. Most of the countries that were colonial powers were capitalist countries and the last bulwark of capitalism today is America and it’s impossible for a white person today to believe in capitalism and not believe in racism. You can’t have capitalism without racism. And if you find a person without racism and you happen to get that person into conversation and they have a philosophy that makes you sure they don’t have this racism in their outlook, usually they’re socialists or their political Philosophy is socialism.”

A...

[Wolf DeVoon]

All I'm saying is that if someone in a minority area shows potential over their peers, even if those results don't stack up that well against the average student in a historically better school system , they should be allowed to get a fair shake at a qualified university level education.

I know. I don't disrespect what you said. However, it's already happened. See this one link I quoted above, and look at the data.

[Mikee]

At the university level if you're not prepared to compete at the highest level already it's too late. Being allowed entry does not mean success. I have an example. A co-worker of mine some years ago I realized was very bright, far above his job description (engineering tech). I finally learned his story from one of the managers. He grew up in a lower income area with not very high achieving schools. He was very bright, seriously, but had zero competition from his schoolmates. Got the highest scores and the best grades but it was too easy, he was never challenged. He was accepted to Caltech. He crashed and burned, dropped out after a year. He was not used to competing for grades with people who had the brains and talent he had but had been working in a much more demanding environment around much brighter people. He simply could not do as much work in as short a time. He got very depressed. He quit school, eventually got jobs working as an electronics assembler and eventually worked his way up. When I knew him he was finishing up correspondence courses from Cleveland Institute and doing very well at them. He was also a very good self teacher. I don't know what he's been doing the last 25 years or so but I wouldn't be surprised if he were doing high level work somewhere. He was off the scale IQ wise and technical ability but simply wasn't prepared to compete with his peers who had been do a lot of high level work for many years before getting to Caltech. I don't think any amount of affirmative action would be helpful if you are not prepared. If you are prepared, no matter what your race or ethnicity, nothing can stop you.

[Derek McGowan]

All I'm saying is that if someone in a minority area shows potential over their peers, even if those results don't stack up that well against the average student in a historically better school system , they should be allowed to get a fair shake at a qualified university level education.

I know. I don't disrespect what you said. However, it's already happened. See this one link I quoted above, and look at the data.

Thanks for the link Wolf, it seems to be a fair and comprehensive article. But telling me that the graduation rate for affirmative action blacks is 41% doesn't change my perspective at all, because I am aware and have stated that there will be those who can't keep up. Also having 41% graduate from a prestigious school when without affirmative action (in education) 100% would have had no other choice but bare bones community colleges, is still a net benefit.

That is messed up about the Asian Americans having a even higher bar to achieve though...

[Derek McGowan]

At the university level if you're not prepared to compete at the highest level already it's too late. Being allowed entry does not mean success. I have an example. A co-worker of mine some years ago I realized was very bright, far above his job description (engineering tech). I finally learned his story from one of the managers. He grew up in a lower income area with not very high achieving schools. He was very bright, seriously, but had zero competition from his schoolmates. Got the highest scores and the best grades but it was too easy, he was never challenged. He was accepted to Caltech. He crashed and burned, dropped out after a year. He was not used to competing for grades with people who had the brains and talent he had but had been working in a much more demanding environment around much brighter people. He simply could not do as much work in as short a time. He got very depressed. He quit school, eventually got jobs working as an electronics assembler and eventually worked his way up. When I knew him he was finishing up correspondence courses from Cleveland Institute and doing very well at them. He was also a very good self teacher. I don't know what he's been doing the last 25 years or so but I wouldn't be surprised if he were doing high level work somewhere. He was off the scale IQ wise and technical ability but simply wasn't prepared to compete with his peers who had been do a lot of high level work for many years before getting to Caltech. I don't think any amount of affirmative action would be helpful if you are not prepared. If you are prepared, no matter what your race or ethnicity, nothing can stop you.

MIkee, though you don't agree with me, I can tell by your post above that you fully understand the points and perspective that I was trying to state, therefore I respect your opinion and experiences

[Brant Gaede]

At the university level if you're not prepared to compete at the highest level already it's too late. Being allowed entry does not mean success. I have an example. A co-worker of mine some years ago I realized was very bright, far above his job description (engineering tech). I finally learned his story from one of the managers. He grew up in a lower income area with not very high achieving schools. He was very bright, seriously, but had zero competition from his schoolmates. Got the highest scores and the best grades but it was too easy, he was never challenged. He was accepted to Caltech. He crashed and burned, dropped out after a year. He was not used to competing for grades with people who had the brains and talent he had but had been working in a much more demanding environment around much brighter people. He simply could not do as much work in as short a time. He got very depressed. He quit school, eventually got jobs working as an electronics assembler and eventually worked his way up. When I knew him he was finishing up correspondence courses from Cleveland Institute and doing very well at them. He was also a very good self teacher. I don't know what he's been doing the last 25 years or so but I wouldn't be surprised if he were doing high level work somewhere. He was off the scale IQ wise and technical ability but simply wasn't prepared to compete with his peers who had been do a lot of high level work for many years before getting to Caltech. I don't think any amount of affirmative action would be helpful if you are not prepared. If you are prepared, no matter what your race or ethnicity, nothing can stop you.

But it wasn't "too late"--not if he found another way.

--Brant

[Derek McGowan]

Derek:

One of the reasons that I asked is that I have a lot of respect for Malcom X who I heard speak numerous

times in the early 60's in Harlam and he was [preaching] black capitalism.

{pay close attention at 2:40 and 4:10

OOPS

Malcolm X on Capitalism and Socialism

By The Organizer

In his last year of life, before his assassination on February 21, 1965, Malcolm X’s political views evolved towards anti-capitalist positions. “You can’t have capitalism without racism,” he said.

"[in] my opinion, the young generation of whites, Blacks, browns, whatever else there is, you’re living in a time of revolution, a time when there’s got to be change," Malcolm told a group of British students in 1964. "People in power have misused it, and now there has to be a change, and a better world has to be built, and the only way it’s going to be built is with extreme methods. I, for one, will join in with anyone–I don’t care what color you are–as long as you want to change this miserable condition that exists on this earth."

He continued: "[it is] incorrect to classify the revolt of the Negro as simply a racial conflict of Black against white, or as purely an American problem. Rather, we are seeing today a global rebellion of the oppressed against the oppressor, the exploited against the exploiter."

Asked what he thought was responsible for race prejudice in America, he responded: “Ignorance and greed. And a skillfully designed program of miseducation that goes right along with the American system of exploitation and oppression.”

In an interview with the Young Socialist he stated: “It is impossible for capitalism to survive, primarily because the system of capitalism needs some blood to suck. Capitalism used to be like an eagle, but now it’s more like a vulture and can only suck the blood of the helpless. As the nations of the world free themselves, then capitalism has less and less victims, less to suck, and it becomes weaker and weaker. It’s only a matter of time in my opinion before it will collapse completely.”

When he was asked what kind of political system he wanted, he said:

“I don’t know. But I’m flexible. As was stated earlier, all of the countries that are emerging today from under the shackles of colonialism are turning toward socialism. I don’t think it’s an accident. Most of the countries that were colonial powers were capitalist countries and the last bulwark of capitalism today is America and it’s impossible for a white person today to believe in capitalism and not believe in racism. You can’t have capitalism without racism. And if you find a person without racism and you happen to get that person into conversation and they have a philosophy that makes you sure they don’t have this racism in their outlook, usually they’re socialists or their political Philosophy is socialism.”

A...

Thanks for the video and not only do I agree with everything that Malcolm X said but I know it to be true. Buuuuuttttttt..... while the possible future if the black community would get their act together may be great that has nothing to do with those students today who have a positive attitude, work hard and are still trapped in a community where the average black doesn't care. What to do about those innocent hard working students? If you say do nothing at all, then that is your opinion. If you say that anyone who even cares about the fairness or unfairness really of the plight of these innocent hard working students must be a collectivist, then I must be a collectivist. If you say that education is really not that important and there are many paths to success, while that is true (that there are many paths) that would be your opinion and I respect it. But if you say that, because there is a possibility that the black community could get itself together in the future, then that means that currently the playing field is even for those willing to play..... now I have a problem with what you are saying and now I must protest. The playing field is not level, no matter whose fault it is so for those who are newly entering the game, those who are willing to work hard, those who have nothing to do with politics or what came before them or anything else, they exist in the her and now, there hard work is here and now and they can be apart of yet another generation that gets lost in the wind or they can have a chance to prove themselves

ps the capital cost of creating a business has gotten so far out of hand that everyone (or very nearly everyone) is reliant on banks to help finance their business plans. With that being said and with blacks historically getting shafted over loans, the playing field is also not level with those who do have an entrepreneurial spirit, but that another thread

[Wolf DeVoon]

the capital cost of creating a business has gotten so far out of hand that everyone (or very nearly everyone) is reliant on banks to help finance their business plans. With that being said and with blacks historically getting shafted over loans, the playing field is also not level with those who do have an entrepreneurial spirit, but that another thread

Funny things happen to people who start with nothing and work hard.

By the 1950s Sanchez owned a small office-supply company in Laredo. "I almost starved," he says. One evening, while riding home from a local Democratic party meeting, a passenger in the car asked if anyone could help him buy up leases for oil and gas exploration among the ranchers in the area. "I was almost asleep," Sanchez says, "but I perked up and said, 'I'm your man.' " He was paid $2,500 for the first lease, plus a small percentage of the well's output which he later sold for $7,500. By the early 1960s he was earning up to $50,000 per year.

Tony Jr., meanwhile, obtained a law degree from St. Mary's University in San Antonio. Three months among the lobbyists and politicians in Austin as assistant to the lieutenant governor whetted his appetite for some of the action in natural gas. It was selling for only about 10 cents per thousand cubic feet at the time, but Tony Jr. convinced his father that eventually there would be a shortage. In 1971 the Sanchezes joined up with their friend O'Brien, an English-born geologist renowned for his uncanny ability to divine oil and gas deposits. On Sept. 22, 1974 the three men stood beside the noisy drilling rig as their first well came in. "You'd think we'd get drunk—but we didn't," recalls the elder Sanchez. "We just went home, and I cooked some cowboy stew." More than two years later the well is still yielding $4,500 worth of gas every day.

In the subsequent scramble for leases, the Sanchezes found themselves pitted against the big oil companies. "They'd send in their experts," says the gregarious Tony Sr., who is the "belly-to-belly negotiator" for his group, while his more reserved son handles the legal and financial ends of the business. "The competition would work 9 to 5. But we worked night and day, seven days a week. Local people would lease to us because they were flattered we took the time to come down and see them." Today the Sanchez-O'Brien Group boasts an annual income of $11,680,000 from its drilling operations. Yet both Sanchez generations—Tony Jr. is married and has two small children—remain in the modest homes they owned before their bonanza. O'Brien lives in Houston with his wife and five children.

In Laredo, the Sanchezes are trying to bolster the local economy. They have set up a bank and a savings and loan association and are planning a new industrial park that would strengthen the city's tax base. Tony Sr. declares: "I want to see this town become what my ancestors dreamed it would be."

[People Magazine, 1977]

------

Can't happen today? http://www.inc.com/ss/inc5000/abigail-tracy/top-black-entrepreneurs-2012-inc-5000

[Derek McGowan]

Wolf, we could be living in the aftermath of an alien invasion and you would be able to point out a few individuals who worked hard and became a success... So what? There will always be those who are lucky, have the right connections, born geniuses, beyond extreme tenacious hard workers etc. Show me 5 successful people out 10 and I'll say that that is a very favorable environment. Show me 5 out of 100 and I will say those folks have what it takes. But show me 5 out of 20,000 and what you have is a sorry state of affairs. They don't show me what's possible, they simply are outliers.

Besides, though it is a different thread, you can't possiblybe saying that there hasn't been an historic difference in loan rates and that those loans don't make a difference.

On the other hand, I'd love to see an example from 2000 forward where someone built a business from scratch without a loan

[Wolf DeVoon]

I'd love to see an example from 2000 forward where someone built a business from scratch without a loan

I think you have a mistaken idea of how businesses are funded. It's mostly retained earnings. A chosen few can float High Yield bonds at historically very low rates since 2002, mostly in shale gas & oil, leveraged buyouts (taking a public company private) and airline mergers.

But there's a special category of lending you might want to think twice about.

60% of the SBA budget goes to minority-owned small business grants and loan guarantees http://www.sba.gov/content/minority-owned-businesses

National Minority Supply and Diversity Council channels over $50 billion a year in sales http://www.entrepreneur.com/article/52012

Every bank in the country has concessionary rates and terms for minority borrowers https://www.unionbank.com/small-business/loans-lines-credit/diversity-lending/

Every state in the nation has grants and loan guarantees for minority-owned business http://esd.ny.gov/businessPrograms/MWBEDevelopmentLending.html

U.S. Minority Business Development Agency lists $500 billion in annual grants and loans http://www.mbda.gov/main/find-grant-and-loan-info

It's almost absurd how many $ billions are earmarked for African-American higher ed http://businessmajors.about.com/od/payingforschool/tp/MinorityScholar.htm

If you can't catch some of that free loot falling from the sky, you just ain't trying.

[Selene]

I'd love to see an example from 2000 forward where someone built a business from scratch without a loan

I think you have a mistaken idea of how businesses are funded. It's mostly retained earnings. A chosen few can float High Yield bonds at historically very low rates since 2002, mostly in shale gas & oil, leveraged buyouts (taking a public company private) and airline mergers.

But there's a special category of lending you might want to think twice about.

60% of the SBA budget goes to minority-owned small business grants and loan guarantees http://www.sba.gov/content/minority-owned-businesses

National Minority Supply and Diversity Council channels over $50 billion a year in sales http://www.entrepreneur.com/article/52012

Every bank in the country has concessionary rates and terms for minority borrowers https://www.unionbank.com/small-business/loans-lines-credit/diversity-lending/

Every state in the nation has grants and loan guarantees for minority-owned business http://esd.ny.gov/businessPrograms/MWBEDevelopmentLending.html

U.S. Minority Business Development Agency lists $500 billion in annual grants and loans http://www.mbda.gov/main/find-grant-and-loan-info

It's almost absurd how many $ billions are earmarked for African-American higher ed http://businessmajors.about.com/od/payingforschool/tp/MinorityScholar.htm

If you can't catch some of that free loot falling from the sky, you just ain't trying.

Correct.

If folks knew how many "ghost" shell corporations/businesses are set up with minority "heads" just to

access grants, loans etc. you would be grabbing that torch and pitchfork.

A...

All systems are beatable...

[Brant Gaede]

I'd love to see an example from 2000 forward where someone built a business from scratch without a loan

I think you have a mistaken idea of how businesses are funded. It's mostly retained earnings. A chosen few can float High Yield bonds at historically very low rates since 2002, mostly in shale gas & oil, leveraged buyouts (taking a public company private) and airline mergers.

But there's a special category of lending you might want to think twice about.

60% of the SBA budget goes to minority-owned small business grants and loan guarantees http://www.sba.gov/content/minority-owned-businesses

National Minority Supply and Diversity Council channels over $50 billion a year in sales http://www.entrepreneur.com/article/52012

Every bank in the country has concessionary rates and terms for minority borrowers https://www.unionbank.com/small-business/loans-lines-credit/diversity-lending/

Every state in the nation has grants and loan guarantees for minority-owned business http://esd.ny.gov/businessPrograms/MWBEDevelopmentLending.html

U.S. Minority Business Development Agency lists $500 billion in annual grants and loans http://www.mbda.gov/main/find-grant-and-loan-info

It's almost absurd how many $ billions are earmarked for African-American higher ed http://businessmajors.about.com/od/payingforschool/tp/MinorityScholar.htm

If you can't catch some of that free loot falling from the sky, you just ain't trying.

Catching shit.

--Brant