Sockpuppet Garbage

[Brant Gaede]

SB,

Good Lord!

Do I have to read that thing?

Dayaamm!

Michael

Do what I did: read a few words, skip 50. Read one paragraph entirely for a control on your comprehension. If you aren't getting it try skipping 20, repeat.

--Brant

looking for one paragraph to take my own advice

[caroljane]

MSK and Brant, lol/Like I always say, you men were created for the entertainment of us women. Keep up the good work!

[Brant Gaede]

MSK and Brant, lol/Like I always say, you men were created for the entertainment of us women. Keep up the good work!

Never thought of entertaining women with my clothes on before. Thanks.

--Brant

mind expansion or post in the nude?

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

I will give you this. SB truly tries to figure things out, even if he's sassy and goes way off-track at times. He gets quirky and I like that.

The other dude only wants to debunk any and all before him so he can bare his chest and let out a Tarzan yell in his mind.

I don't mind playing with SB. That can get fun..

But I don't like playing with the other dude. I have never enjoyed helping someone else masturbate--unless it is consensual .

Michael

[caroljane]

I will give you this. SB truly tries to figure things out, even if he's sassy and goes way off-track at times. He gets quirky and I like that.

The other dude only wants to debunk any and all before him so he can bare his chest and let out a Tarzan yell in his mind.

I don't mind playing with SB. That can get fun..

But I don't like playing with the other dude. I have never enjoyed helping someone else masturbate--unless it is consensual .

Michael

It's OK, you don't have to be that entertaining!

[caroljane]

Brant, you live in Arizona, Canadianspeak for "oven." I assumed you post in the nude a lot of the time anyway.

[Brant Gaede]

Today is the first time(?)--if you disregard the socks.

--Brant

the miracle of air conditioning

[Serapis Bey]

Your "feminization of the culture" thesis sounds like a sane Doug Bandler - skewed but not totally unentertainable.

Thank you , dear. But I question my sanity every day.

[KacyRay]

Serrabis Bey... why yoo think everyone here is a stoopids? I don dum dum down the thing what I say... I am smart guy.

My father has said his impression is that folks like you on ships are forbidden from drinking during the entirety of the tour. Is that true? If so, that sucks.

We can't drink on the ship, but we do have port calls. But I have to tell you, I don't really miss it. I was recently on the ground for about 6 straight days. I had a beer for lunch once or twice - nothing crazy. Didn't really feel much like drinking. I did drink the complimentary bottle of wine at the hotel I was at... but only because it was there and I would've hated to let it go to waste. I did not, however, drink the complimentary bottle of champagne.

Honestly... I can't think of one time since I've been on this ship that I've wished I could have a drink. Lots of folks in the Ward Room joke about how much they're going to throw back once they get on shore, but I didn't see a single officer appear to have the slightest buzz on during the entire port call. It just doesn't seem to be anything that anyone really thinks about. I know I don't.

I do think about other things, however. Being on a ship does have it's downsides.

[Ellen Stuttle]

I think he's Darren [...].

Has the anagram been pointed out?

Darren Wrede

We Erred Rand

(I hadn't noticed it. Someone else pointed it out to me.)

Ellen

[KacyRay]

2) I highlight this issue because it has ramifications beyond this forum. The issues surrounding "fragile self-esteem" and "egos" and the responsibilities one has towards protecting or not protecting the egos of others is relevant to so much in the world, not just this forum. I can tell you this is an issue my colleague Kacy Ray and I have locked horns over in the past. To what extent should conversation be restrained in the service of the "other" and his or her emotional needs, or rather, their 'self-esteem", or "fragile ego", or "self-respect"? I would refer you to Kacy's thread "Is it altruism to endure disrepect?" for more on this. I would say Rand was rather imperious and arrogant in certain aspects of her behavior. But we find defenders of her behavior right here. Yet, on the other hand, poor Phildo Coates was run out of town for much of the same. Complex, no? What is the difference between self-esteem and an overweening self-regard? I'm reminded here of that Southpark episode lampooning the hippie liberals in San Francisco getting high off their own farts and smug sense of superiority.

I don't think having the social intelligence required to understand the value of respecting others and demonstrating that respect during social interactions amounts to "service of the other and his or her emotional needs".

This subject is one near and dear to my heart, because I have learned that I grew up with so many social dysfunctions I never realized I had that today I feel so embarrassed for my past behaviors that I've developed a minor form of Tourettes syndrom.

It's to the point that my wife has learned to ignore it if she hears me make a some completely unexpected grunt or "augh" sound. It happens so frequently that she no longer asks me "what's wrong" or even looks in my direction. What she doesn't know is that those are just the sounds I make when I'm around people. When I'm not around people, the swear words do come out.

I've also never explained to her what the source of those gutteral sounds are.

But now that I'm on a ship, it's become a real issue. I make noises and people turn around and look. This happens during briefs, while I'm at my desk, etc... It's sucks.

What triggers those sounds is when a memory rushes into my mind of something I've done in the past that I can't believe I was blind, stupid, or inept enough to have done. Either that, or something someone has done to me in response to that ineptitude. And the memories don't stop. And there's an endless supply of them.`

So that's the price I'm paying for it all. That's the damage done. I contain these the best I can, but it seems I can't make them stop.

SB is right - we have gone around and around on this topic. I full-on disagree with any contention that disrespect is a necessary (and even normal) aspect of normal human relations. Growing up in the confines of my self-crafted safe zone, I ensured I was insulated from those healthy types who actually went out into the world and learned how to dwell among human beings. SB and I, in particular, had our own mini-culture where the surest way to demonstrate solidarity was with put-downs and taunts.

As young aspiring musicians, the entirety of our original musical compositions consisted of songs taunting each other and one of our closest friends. At this point, I don't know if anything we did was genuinely funny, although we got a good laugh out of making the same jokes over and over for decades. If you were in our clique, you were guaranteed to hear one of us tell you why something about you "sucks", and equally guaranteed not to hear anything positive about yourself. (Small wonder we were never invited to parties, right?)

The mentality carried over into my first marriage, where my wife and I (both members of this very exclusive subculture) saw no problem with bickering and insulting each other on a regular basis, often in full public display, oblivious to the looks of shock in the faces of others, not understanding why they would often scuttle away in embarrassment for us.

15 years ago, I joined the USMC as an enlisted guy. 4 years ago I became on officer. During that time, I've learned some pretty painful truths. I've learned how truly dysfunctional my behavior has been throughout the years. I've learned the extent of the damage done to my psychology and the fact that I may not have enough years left to fully recover.

I've learned that alpha males that exist in a meritocracy do have ways of "ribbing" each other... and it's done skillfully and respectfully, without any apparent effort or difficulty, because the mutual respect is a natural, engrained aspect of the psychology. Whereas, for me, maneuvering through the day-to-day social minefield requires the full measure of my effort, attention, and application of 15 years of hard-earned education - for them it requires nothing more than waking up in the morning and being themselves.

I've learned that when men who do respect themselves and expect respect from others make genuinely insulting statements, they mean them. And moreover, they expect that when others make those sorts of statements, that they mean them as well. (Hint: If you call me a bitch, you'd better expect me to believe you really think I am one, and you'd better expect one of two responses: 1) I demonstrate to you that you're wrong or 2) I forever relegate myself that role. There is no in-between, and it's not something to be glossed over. It's not ever a remark made casually to another man.)

I've learned what respect is: An internalize recognition of another's demonstrated abilities and/or value.

I've learned that to disrespect someone is to either fail to internally recognize their demonstrated abilities and/or value (which is bad) or to fail to demonstrate the internally recognition of that ability or value (which is worse).

Of course, not everyone merits respect. I'm not suggesting everyone does. And respect exists on the very same spectrum that ability and value do. In that regard, I consider respect a form of social currency. For this reason, I consider disrespect as an act of depriving someone of a social currency that they have earned.

And I think that's why disrespect invokes such a feeling of rage in alpha-males. They recognize it for what it is - it is an act of denying them social capital that they have earned (or feel they merit). It makes them every bit as angry to have their social capital taken from them as it would to have their money stolen from them. It deprives them of something they know is theirs and that they feel they've earned (whether this feeling is justified or not is a different issue - obviously some have an inflated sense of social entitlement, but those aren't the sort I'm discussing here right now).

And I think that's why the subject of respect invokes such a feeling of apathetic, mystified, unintelligible sneering from those who don't understand it. After all, one who is blind to the very concept of social capital would necessarily be mystified at anyone who gets angered when it is denied to them, would they not?

So yes, my eyes have been opened to this. And now that they are, it's difficult for me to accept such treatment from those who are still blind to it. Since I never have to deal with this from any of my professional peers, from any of my subordinates, from any of my seniors, from my wife, from my family, from anyone I meet in the real world... it becomes that much more difficult for me to accept it from people I associate with online.

I hold that this is a healthy approach. In stark contrast to the idea that a proportionate demonstration of mutual respect is some sort of "service of someone's emotional needs", I hold that to deliberately disrespect someone is to withhold from them social capital that they have earned, and this is a transgression for which one will always pay dearly.

SB regards this as being thin-skinned. To that I'd say: If you recoil at the idea of someone (a stranger, a family member, your best friend) casually walking through your living room door, walking over to your kitchen counter, taking the money out of your wallet, and walking off with a grin on their face... how much more should you recoil at the idea of someone casually stealing hard-earned social capital?

Of course, money is tangible and it's theft is measurable to anyone. To understand the measure of the loss of social capital requires either natural social intelligence or a crash course in the school of hard knocks. Absent either of those, one is likely to go through life attributing their social failure to the vices of others and the general shittiness of society in general, never realizing that he or she was to blame for their own social impoverishment.

I suppose I should address this question directly: To what extent should conversation be restrained in the service of the "other" and his or her emotional needs, or rather, their 'self-esteem", or "fragile ego", or "self-respect"?

Answer: To the extent that one merits respect, respect should be afforded. This is not a restraint of conversation, any more than paying for your burger is a restraint of your ability to walk out the door with all your cash still in your pocket. It is earned, not a request for charity. Therefore it is expected. If you refuse to understand or acknowledge the fact that people are deserving of the respect they've earned, you will do so at your own peril.

[Brant Gaede]

2) I highlight this issue because it has ramifications beyond this forum. The issues surrounding "fragile self-esteem" and "egos" and the responsibilities one has towards protecting or not protecting the egos of others is relevant to so much in the world, not just this forum. I can tell you this is an issue my colleague Kacy Ray and I have locked horns over in the past. To what extent should conversation be restrained in the service of the "other" and his or her emotional needs, or rather, their 'self-esteem", or "fragile ego", or "self-respect"? I would refer you to Kacy's thread "Is it altruism to endure disrepect?" for more on this. I would say Rand was rather imperious and arrogant in certain aspects of her behavior. But we find defenders of her behavior right here. Yet, on the other hand, poor Phildo Coates was run out of town for much of the same. Complex, no? What is the difference between self-esteem and an overweening self-regard? I'm reminded here of that Southpark episode lampooning the hippie liberals in San Francisco getting high off their own farts and smug sense of superiority.

I don't think having the social intelligence required to understand the value of respecting others and demonstrating that respect during social interactions amounts to "service of the other and his or her emotional needs".

This subject is one near and dear to my heart, because I have learned that I grew up with so many social dysfunctions I never realized I had that today I feel so embarrassed for my past behaviors that I've developed a minor form of Tourettes syndrom.

It's to the point that my wife has learned to ignore it if she hears me make a some completely unexpected grunt or "augh" sound. It happens so frequently that she no longer asks me "what's wrong" or even looks in my direction. What she doesn't know is that those are just the sounds I make when I'm around people. When I'm not around people, the swear words do come out.

I've also never explained to her what the source of those gutteral sounds are.

But now that I'm on a ship, it's become a real issue. I make noises and people turn around and look. This happens during briefs, while I'm at my desk, etc... It's sucks.

What triggers those sounds is when a memory rushes into my mind of something I've done in the past that I can't believe I was blind, stupid, or inept enough to have done. Either that, or something someone has done to me in response to that ineptitude. And the memories don't stop. And there's an endless supply of them.`

So that's the price I'm paying for it all. That's the damage done. I contain these the best I can, but it seems I can't make them stop.

SB is right - we have gone around and around on this topic. I full-on disagree with any contention that disrespect is a necessary (and even normal) aspect of normal human relations. Growing up in the confines of my self-crafted safe zone, I ensured I was insulated from those healthy types who actually went out into the world and learned how to dwell among human beings. SB and I, in particular, had our own mini-culture where the surest way to demonstrate solidarity was with put-downs and taunts.

As young aspiring musicians, the entirety of our original musical compositions consisted of songs taunting each other and one of our closest friends. At this point, I don't know if anything we did was genuinely funny, although we got a good laugh out of making the same jokes over and over for decades. If you were in our clique, you were guaranteed to hear one of us tell you why something about you "sucks", and equally guaranteed not to hear anything positive about yourself. (Small wonder we were never invited to parties, right?)

The mentality carried over into my first marriage, where my wife and I (both members of this very exclusive subculture) saw no problem with bickering and insulting each other on a regular basis, often in full public display, oblivious to the looks of shock in the faces of others, not understanding why they would often scuttle away in embarrassment for us.

15 years ago, I joined the USMC as an enlisted guy. 4 years ago I became on officer. During that time, I've learned some pretty painful truths. I've learned how truly dysfunctional my behavior has been throughout the years. I've learned the extent of the damage done to my psychology and the fact that I may not have enough years left to fully recover.

I've learned that alpha males that exist in a meritocracy do have ways of "ribbing" each other... and it's done skillfully and respectfully, without any apparent effort or difficulty, because the mutual respect is a natural, engrained aspect of the psychology. Whereas, for me, maneuvering through the day-to-day social minefield requires the full measure of my effort, attention, and application of 15 years of hard-earned education - for them it requires nothing more than waking up in the morning and being themselves.

I've learned that when men who do respect themselves and expect respect from others make genuinely insulting statements, they mean them. And moreover, they expect that when others make those sorts of statements, that they mean them as well. (Hint: If you call me a bitch, you'd better expect me to believe you really think I am one, and you'd better expect one of two responses: 1) I demonstrate to you that you're wrong or 2) I forever relegate myself that role. There is no in-between, and it's not something to be glossed over. It's not ever a remark made casually to another man.)

I've learned what respect is: An internalize recognition of another's demonstrated abilities and/or value.

I've learned that to disrespect someone is to either fail to internally recognize their demonstrated abilities and/or value (which is bad) or to fail to demonstrate the internally recognition of that ability or value (which is worse).

Of course, not everyone merits respect. I'm not suggesting everyone does. And respect exists on the very same spectrum that ability and value do. In that regard, I consider respect a form of social currency. For this reason, I consider disrespect as an act of depriving someone of a social currency that they have earned.

And I think that's why disrespect invokes such a feeling of rage in alpha-males. They recognize it for what it is - it is an act of denying them social capital that they have earned (or feel they merit). It makes them every bit as angry to have their social capital taken from them as it would to have their money stolen from them. It deprives them of something they know is theirs and that they feel they've earned (whether this feeling is justified or not is a different issue - obviously some have an inflated sense of social entitlement, but those aren't the sort I'm discussing here right now).

And I think that's why the subject of respect invokes such a feeling of apathetic, mystified, unintelligible sneering from those who don't understand it. After all, one who is blind to the very concept of social capital would necessarily be mystified at anyone who gets angered when it is denied to them, would they not?

So yes, my eyes have been opened to this. And now that they are, it's difficult for me to accept such treatment from those who are still blind to it. Since I never have to deal with this from any of my professional peers, from any of my subordinates, from any of my seniors, from my wife, from my family, from anyone I meet in the real world... it becomes that much more difficult for me to accept it from people I associate with online.

I hold that this is a healthy approach. In stark contrast to the idea that a proportionate demonstration of mutual respect is some sort of "service of someone's emotional needs", I hold that to deliberately disrespect someone is to withhold from them social capital that they have earned, and this is a transgression for which one will always pay dearly.

SB regards this as being thin-skinned. To that I'd say: If you recoil at the idea of someone (a stranger, a family member, your best friend) casually walking through your living room door, walking over to your kitchen counter, taking the money out of your wallet, and walking off with a grin on their face... how much more should you recoil at the idea of someone casually stealing hard-earned social capital?

Of course, money is tangible and it's theft is measurable to anyone. To understand the measure of the loss of social capital requires either natural social intelligence or a crash course in the school of hard knocks. Absent either of those, one is likely to go through life attributing their social failure to the vices of others and the general shittiness of society in general, never realizing that he or she was to blame for their own social impoverishment.

I suppose I should address this question directly: To what extent should conversation be restrained in the service of the "other" and his or her emotional needs, or rather, their 'self-esteem", or "fragile ego", or "self-respect"?

Answer: To the extent that one merits respect, respect should be afforded. This is not a restraint of conversation, any more than paying for your burger is a restraint of your ability to walk out the door with all your cash still in your pocket. It is earned, not a request for charity. Therefore it is expected. If you refuse to understand or acknowledge the fact that people are deserving of the respect they've earned, you will do so at your own peril.

Regarding the symptoms you still experience from past behavior. I have a milder form of this respecting some thing I said or did or happened to me. Superficially you might try transference but it probably won't work as it happens so fast. You might get a small bag of sand or roll of nickles and squeeze instead of grunt and groan. Say you inadvertently let out a yelp, a hard squeeze might stop more of them at the time. (The nickles can do double duty in a fist fight.)

Metaphorically I experience this as something held up by psychological dams inside me and when I suddenly cry out it's a dam breaking. The dam always gets immediately reconstructed.

I'm not a therapist but have a lot of experience in psychology including therapeutic work with Nathaniel Branden. If I had your much more difficult situation I'd try Gestalt therapy and maybe Rolfing. (If I were to get Rolfed I would not let the Rolfer manipulate my head or neck--or anyone--fearing the artificial inducement of what may as well be a stroke.)

My problem is not related, I think, to disrespect, at least not any more. While it is not in my nature to disrespect anyone--that's my default position--I can and occasionally do, sometimes accidentally and sometimes deliberately. If I'm wrong and it's objected to I try to set it right. If I'm right and it's objected to I might talk it out depending on how the objection comes at me. Here's a real example of how I ideally handle dis-respect: I used to patronize a butcher shop in New Jersey and as is my nature I made humorous remarks. (I still do this today.) One new young butcher mis-interpreted what I was about and he seemingly thought I was some kind of clown and started making remarks dumping on me that implied I was one and a fool. I just stood there and quietly said, "You know, just because we are human beings we naturally extend to each other a certain amount of respect." He immediately knew exactly what I was talking about and dropped the crap and I never had any more such trouble from him. Un-ideally, if some one catches me sharply by complete surprise, I'm likely to tear his or her head off verbally. I need to be set and centered. I usually am. Once I was road-raged on and the jerk followed me. I pulled over and he pulled up behind me. I picked up my .380 auto and held it up so it could be seen and worked the slide. He took off in a quick U-turn. Another time someone crossed the T in front of my car at an intersection and somehow had the idea I had done something intimidating to him. He stopped his truck and got out and started toward me. No gun this time--I simply put the car in reverse and backed up ten feet. His machismo appeased, he drove away. I had the luxury of backing up the entire block if I had to as well as the possibility of a more extreme response. These incidents are rare and are getting rarer as I get older. Young hotheads are mostly bouncing off each other, not oldsteers, who don't represent a social threat.

While I understand the need for social capital that should not a substitute for psychological capital. Coming out of high school I was grossly deficient in both and have spent my adulthood working on the latter to the benefit of the former. (Politically I have moved from interventionist-conservative to delimited government Objectivist to delimited government libertarian still basically an Objectivist. It's a journey to individualism. I once fought in a crappy war, knew it was crap and got out before it got so crappy it was manifestly insane. But my implicit faith was still in government and it still is although much weaker. War has a lot to do with this slow transformation. War for oil, war for hubris, war for knavery, war for stupidity, war for America, war for democracy, war for someone else sending soldiers in harm's way, but no war for anything good that couldn't have been accomplished without it. It's easy to see basically the same crap in domestic policies. But I can't stop standing up by being by my country for I can't shake the ideal it represents even though the United States is a falling piano needing respect but incapable of levitation needing a superman--he better not be coming for he'll bring another great war with him--for that.)

--Brant

life after "Splat!"

[PDS]

2) I highlight this issue because it has ramifications beyond this forum. The issues surrounding "fragile self-esteem" and "egos" and the responsibilities one has towards protecting or not protecting the egos of others is relevant to so much in the world, not just this forum. I can tell you this is an issue my colleague Kacy Ray and I have locked horns over in the past. To what extent should conversation be restrained in the service of the "other" and his or her emotional needs, or rather, their 'self-esteem", or "fragile ego", or "self-respect"? I would refer you to Kacy's thread "Is it altruism to endure disrepect?" for more on this. I would say Rand was rather imperious and arrogant in certain aspects of her behavior. But we find defenders of her behavior right here. Yet, on the other hand, poor Phildo Coates was run out of town for much of the same. Complex, no? What is the difference between self-esteem and an overweening self-regard? I'm reminded here of that Southpark episode lampooning the hippie liberals in San Francisco getting high off their own farts and smug sense of superiority.

I don't think having the social intelligence required to understand the value of respecting others and demonstrating that respect during social interactions amounts to "service of the other and his or her emotional needs".

This subject is one near and dear to my heart, because I have learned that I grew up with so many social dysfunctions I never realized I had that today I feel so embarrassed for my past behaviors that I've developed a minor form of Tourettes syndrom.

It's to the point that my wife has learned to ignore it if she hears me make a some completely unexpected grunt or "augh" sound. It happens so frequently that she no longer asks me "what's wrong" or even looks in my direction. What she doesn't know is that those are just the sounds I make when I'm around people. When I'm not around people, the swear words do come out.

I've also never explained to her what the source of those gutteral sounds are.

But now that I'm on a ship, it's become a real issue. I make noises and people turn around and look. This happens during briefs, while I'm at my desk, etc... It's sucks.

What triggers those sounds is when a memory rushes into my mind of something I've done in the past that I can't believe I was blind, stupid, or inept enough to have done. Either that, or something someone has done to me in response to that ineptitude. And the memories don't stop. And there's an endless supply of them.`

So that's the price I'm paying for it all. That's the damage done. I contain these the best I can, but it seems I can't make them stop.

SB is right - we have gone around and around on this topic. I full-on disagree with any contention that disrespect is a necessary (and even normal) aspect of normal human relations. Growing up in the confines of my self-crafted safe zone, I ensured I was insulated from those healthy types who actually went out into the world and learned how to dwell among human beings. SB and I, in particular, had our own mini-culture where the surest way to demonstrate solidarity was with put-downs and taunts.

As young aspiring musicians, the entirety of our original musical compositions consisted of songs taunting each other and one of our closest friends. At this point, I don't know if anything we did was genuinely funny, although we got a good laugh out of making the same jokes over and over for decades. If you were in our clique, you were guaranteed to hear one of us tell you why something about you "sucks", and equally guaranteed not to hear anything positive about yourself. (Small wonder we were never invited to parties, right?)

The mentality carried over into my first marriage, where my wife and I (both members of this very exclusive subculture) saw no problem with bickering and insulting each other on a regular basis, often in full public display, oblivious to the looks of shock in the faces of others, not understanding why they would often scuttle away in embarrassment for us.

15 years ago, I joined the USMC as an enlisted guy. 4 years ago I became on officer. During that time, I've learned some pretty painful truths. I've learned how truly dysfunctional my behavior has been throughout the years. I've learned the extent of the damage done to my psychology and the fact that I may not have enough years left to fully recover.

I've learned that alpha males that exist in a meritocracy do have ways of "ribbing" each other... and it's done skillfully and respectfully, without any apparent effort or difficulty, because the mutual respect is a natural, engrained aspect of the psychology. Whereas, for me, maneuvering through the day-to-day social minefield requires the full measure of my effort, attention, and application of 15 years of hard-earned education - for them it requires nothing more than waking up in the morning and being themselves.

I've learned that when men who do respect themselves and expect respect from others make genuinely insulting statements, they mean them. And moreover, they expect that when others make those sorts of statements, that they mean them as well. (Hint: If you call me a bitch, you'd better expect me to believe you really think I am one, and you'd better expect one of two responses: 1) I demonstrate to you that you're wrong or 2) I forever relegate myself that role. There is no in-between, and it's not something to be glossed over. It's not ever a remark made casually to another man.)

I've learned what respect is: An internalize recognition of another's demonstrated abilities and/or value.

I've learned that to disrespect someone is to either fail to internally recognize their demonstrated abilities and/or value (which is bad) or to fail to demonstrate the internally recognition of that ability or value (which is worse).

Of course, not everyone merits respect. I'm not suggesting everyone does. And respect exists on the very same spectrum that ability and value do. In that regard, I consider respect a form of social currency. For this reason, I consider disrespect as an act of depriving someone of a social currency that they have earned.

And I think that's why disrespect invokes such a feeling of rage in alpha-males. They recognize it for what it is - it is an act of denying them social capital that they have earned (or feel they merit). It makes them every bit as angry to have their social capital taken from them as it would to have their money stolen from them. It deprives them of something they know is theirs and that they feel they've earned (whether this feeling is justified or not is a different issue - obviously some have an inflated sense of social entitlement, but those aren't the sort I'm discussing here right now).

And I think that's why the subject of respect invokes such a feeling of apathetic, mystified, unintelligible sneering from those who don't understand it. After all, one who is blind to the very concept of social capital would necessarily be mystified at anyone who gets angered when it is denied to them, would they not?

So yes, my eyes have been opened to this. And now that they are, it's difficult for me to accept such treatment from those who are still blind to it. Since I never have to deal with this from any of my professional peers, from any of my subordinates, from any of my seniors, from my wife, from my family, from anyone I meet in the real world... it becomes that much more difficult for me to accept it from people I associate with online.

I hold that this is a healthy approach. In stark contrast to the idea that a proportionate demonstration of mutual respect is some sort of "service of someone's emotional needs", I hold that to deliberately disrespect someone is to withhold from them social capital that they have earned, and this is a transgression for which one will always pay dearly.

SB regards this as being thin-skinned. To that I'd say: If you recoil at the idea of someone (a stranger, a family member, your best friend) casually walking through your living room door, walking over to your kitchen counter, taking the money out of your wallet, and walking off with a grin on their face... how much more should you recoil at the idea of someone casually stealing hard-earned social capital?

Of course, money is tangible and it's theft is measurable to anyone. To understand the measure of the loss of social capital requires either natural social intelligence or a crash course in the school of hard knocks. Absent either of those, one is likely to go through life attributing their social failure to the vices of others and the general shittiness of society in general, never realizing that he or she was to blame for their own social impoverishment.

I suppose I should address this question directly: To what extent should conversation be restrained in the service of the "other" and his or her emotional needs, or rather, their 'self-esteem", or "fragile ego", or "self-respect"?

Answer: To the extent that one merits respect, respect should be afforded. This is not a restraint of conversation, any more than paying for your burger is a restraint of your ability to walk out the door with all your cash still in your pocket. It is earned, not a request for charity. Therefore it is expected. If you refuse to understand or acknowledge the fact that people are deserving of the respect they've earned, you will do so at your own peril.

KacyRay:

1. Thanks for your service, especially in the USMC.

2. Can the tail end of your post be boiled down to this: people deserve a modicum of respect until they forfeit that respect. Sometimes the forfeiture is implied. Seems like a good rule to me.

3. Isn't it interesting how quickly it becomes obvious who deserves the respect mentioned in #2, and who doesn't?

[KacyRay]

KacyRay:

1. Thanks for your service, especially in the USMC.

2. Can the tail end of your post be boiled down to this: people deserve a modicum of respect until they forfeit that respect. Sometimes the forfeiture is implied. Seems like a good rule to me.

3. Isn't it interesting how quickly it becomes obvious who deserves the respect mentioned in #2, and who doesn't?

1. Thank you for the kind words.

2. Actually, I summed it up pretty deliberately. People deserve the respect they've earned. In cases where one doesn't know another person well enough to make an informed judgment, it is simply good manners to afford a basic presumption of respect. It's a good idea to "pay it forward", if you will.

3. Yes! Which is why it is so aggravating when other folks seem oblivious to it. Take my friend SB for example... he interprets my call for respectful conversation as some sort of demand that he restrain his conversation. What an inconvenience it must be, to restrain yourself from disrespecting people! How the hell are we supposed to have a conversation without doing that???

I'd rather have someone walk in my house and take the money out of my wallet than to have someone cut out from under my legs the basic, reasonable, modest amount of respect I've managed to earn for myself. Money is so much easier to replace, and so much less important.

[KacyRay]

Brant: Comment noted... just want to point out that when I use the term "disrespect" I am using it specifically to mean a failure to show due respect.

For those to whom little respect is due, little respect should be shown. I don't expect anyone to talk to a street hustler the way they talk to their professor.

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

Kacy,

Here are some of my own thoughts on disrespect. These are conclusions I came to over my life, and some when I tried to figure out how to run a forum. I don't frame it as a trade like you do, although I agree with the intent--the default starting point of goodwill--underlying that frame. And I agree that trade is a good way to understand respect and disrespect on the cognitive level.

1. Disrespect implies rejection. And rejection hurts. Literally. There are fMRI scans that show the areas of the brain that light up when a person is rejected. These are identical regions as those for physical pain.

So you may not experience physical pain on being harshly rejected, but try to tell your brain that. This is one case where perception and reality are at odds.

I believe Rand instinctively knew this and why rejection was such a weapon in her hands, both in her fiction and in life. If she thought someone wronged her, it was rejection time. Both with insults and with outright telling the person to get away from her. She even invented her own jargon for it, "withdrawing sanction" and so on.

Inflicting pain is a form of power. Power corrupts, it always has. And since Rand was a human being, she was not immune. So her cracking the rejection whip grew over the years until the end where only Peikoff was left standing from the original Collective.

But that's not the worst. As the saying goes, God save a prophet from her disciples. Notice that Randroids who ape her and haughtily reject others never do so with the serenity of Roark's "But I don't think of you." At least Rand had him mean it, even if she did make Touhey suffer (I suspect with a great deal of satisfaction when she created that scene, to boot). Instead, their gestures always come with macho-like posturing and an eye toward the crowd of their peers for approval. Underneath, I believe they know their rejection stings their target--or at least they dearly hope so.

(btw - Approval lights up the pleasure areas of the brain, but that is another discussion.)

I am aware of this when I restrict a person on the forum or ban him. It's one of the reasons it takes me so long to do it. I don't like inflicting pain. And believe me, I get no long-term satisfaction from it. I would vastly prefer a douchebag to get it and start acting like a reasonable human being, even if he has called me a piece of shit. We can work out apologies and things like that when goodwill becomes the standard.

I police myself to make sure the instant surges of satisfaction from disciplining a person (which none of us can stop from happening as automatic responses) do not turn into something more long-lasting. I don't admire someone who gets glee from punishing others, who understands that rejection is a form of punishment, and who glories in it. When I reject someone from OL, the gross part is simply to get rid of a person with nasty behavior for the health of the forum--and I make sure this stays so inside myself by constant introspection.

I have found that this attitude has increased my own self-respect. In other words, by respecting the nature of respect and disrespect as processes of psychology and behavior in addition to being a normative statement, and rejecting macho thumping on my chest as I mercilessly trounce a villain before an oohing and aahing crowd, my subconscious seemed to choose the best from among that understanding and automatically apply it to me. It's weird, but that's how it has worked over the last few years.

2. Frankly, since I no longer value competitive discussions (except for good-natured banter, which I have a weakness for), I lost the habit of salivating for a good public trouncing. So now I have a really hard time resonating with certain posters. Everything they say or do is framed as proving them right and proving me (or whoever) wrong. That's where their disrespect comes from--they want to win, win, win, at all costs!

I want to say, "Stop it already. What are you doing? Just look at the idea and see how cool it is. Even if it's ultimately wrong, look behind it and see the cool intent there. Don't you see it? Maybe that intent can grow somewhere else."

After years of online posting, I know that nobody really cares if these cyber-gladiators win or lose at their silly little competitions. Not even they remember after a while. it's a loser's game all the way around, a game where ideas go to die amidst the bluster and noise. So when I discuss most anything with these people, I feel like the cliché image of two boats crossing in the dark without seeing each other.

In this case, I generally start ignoring them on substance and looking to the effect they have on forum's health.

3. Even before OL, I noticed that most of those who destroyed the projects I built started with disrespect towards me. But it was rarely disrespect in private. It was mostly disrespect before others involved in the project. And it always started small and grew as I put up with it. Basically, it was a form of taking power mentally before trying to get it physically.

I didn't understand this fully back when I made a rule for myself, but I did stumble across a very good rule. I decided if a person wanted to disrespect me behind my back, I could not control that, so let 'er fly. Fuck 'em.

But I could control matters if the person wanted to disrespect me to my face. I'm not speaking about when I have screwed up badly and need a dressing down from a person who actually cares. I'm talking about trolls and douchebags and people set on taking what I've got. In this case, I have several options, going from smacking the person real hard all the way down to just walking away and refusing to be a part of their lives.

I've done both extremes and lots of the middle, but the one thing I decided never to accept from myself anymore was just to stand there and take it, or stand there and justify myself to such a person. Sometimes, in my parallel adoption of the policy of acting with flexibility--up to a point (so I can benefit from common sense in addition to good principles), I might, at times, justify myself here on OL to someone who disrespects me, or ignore a bit, but it is for the benefit of the reader, never for the obnoxious person. And, as regular readers already know, when that happens, my passivity does not last all that long.

In my intimate life (especially close friendships), I have found this to be a pretty good policy, too. So long as a person respects me, I reciprocate in kind. Love actually grows from that rich soil. But once a person starts trying to humiliate me, either in private or before others, I cut it short, one way or the other. And if it repeats too much, I get that person out of my life.

4. I come from the South, so disrespect there means dueling time. Not literally anymore, but that attitude still remains, I have found that replacing that attitude with the ones above--ones I have thought through and now act on--has brought me much greater peace of mind. I no longer smolder and linger over slights, like you mentioned you have a problem with.

Also, and this is delicate, I know I don't have to put myself in unnecessary danger to deal with disrespect. This is not cowardice. It's figuring out how it works. There are perfectly good, effective, rational ways of stopping disrespect cold, thus actual dangerous physical fighting becomes a last resort for extreme cases like when violence or serious threat are also involved. (I've done my share of that when necessary, but I sure as hell didn't like it. Even the times when I've come out way on top, I've still gotten busted up pretty badly and I've learned the hard way that physical therapy sucks big-time.)

I don't know if my comments will be of any use to you, but I hope they give you some food for thought. You have my best wishes. I do not want to see you suffer, especially suffer anxiety.

Michael

[Serapis Bey]

Kacy, I would remind you that the environment you are in is one in which the personal decorum of everyone involved is highly regulated and formalized. This is not to say there is no sincere goodwill, rather the stability required for you guys to operate effectively as a team necessitates that people bite their tongues. I'm sure you are genuinely respected by your peers, but do you really think there is not a single person who privately has thoughts about you and reservations about some of your personal habits? Do you take their behavior at face value, in other words?

I think you are laying WAY too much of your regrets over former social faux pas at the feet of this whole "respect" thing. In other words, I think you are oversimplifying. For example, you mention your marriage to M and the way you two bickered in public. You want to imply that this would not have happened were it not for the whole "lack of respect" dynamic that all of us were ensconced in. But do you not remember that both T.D. and I were embarrassed by you and FOR you whenever the public bickering occurred? He and I discussed it. How is it possible that he and I would have had a different perspective if we were all part of the same dynamic? Speaking for myself, my reservations were along the lines of "one should not air one's

dirty laundry in public" or "keep it in the family" or simply, "that is pretty classless." (As I've matured, I would amend that to say I wouldn't entertain an argumentative woman in my romantic life under ANY circumstances, simply for my peace of mind)

Since we were all close friends, T.D. and I didn't have the luxury of distancing ourselves the way some of your other acquaintances did. I seem to recall that we both tried to gently correct you (probably more for our sakes than yours), but you were not having it. No sir. You were convinced that you were absolutely RIGHT, and M was absolutely WRONG, and you were going to let her know it, by God. Damn the presence of any onlookers. You had irrationality to fight! And you probably WERE right most of the time, but you were more concerned with your EGO than you were with the larger context. Where in any of this does your "respect" epiphany play a role?

Moving on:

"just want to point out that when I use the term "disrespect" I am using it specifically to mean a failure to show due

respect."

Now here, there is a certain danger. So you are not talking about active disrepect, but rather the failure to show due respect, the level of what is "properly due" being determined presumably by the person feeling slighted. You've made some noises acknowledging that some people have an inflated view of their self-respect, but seem not to understand the implications of it. I would paraphrase a comment Bob made over in the "Arbitrary" thread: who is the objective arbiter of what is "properly due"? You do not "stand outside of reality" to make that determination. You are imprisoned in your own solitary experience just like the rest of us. Consider some of Brant's experiences:

While it is not in my nature to disrespect anyone--that's my default position--I can and occasionally do, sometimes

accidentally and sometimes deliberately[...]I used to patronize a butcher shop in New Jersey and as is my nature I made

humorous remarks. (I still do this today.) One new young butcher mis-interpreted what I was about and he seemingly thought I

was some kind of clown and started making remarks dumping on me that implied I was one and a fool.

So Brant was being his good-natured wise-cracking self and some other fellow interpreted his remarks through his own lens as disrepect. So the other guy went on the offensive. The other guy was not about to take no shit from no one. In your view, was his response legitimate? He was refusing do endure disrepect, after all.

Another time someone crossed the T in front of my car at an intersection and somehow had the idea I had done something

intimidating to him. He stopped his truck and got out and started toward me. No gun this time--I simply put the car in

reverse and backed up ten feet. His machismo appeased, he drove away.

"somehow had the idea I had done something intimidating to him." I'm sure Brant was not being a jerk. Yet the other guy felt the need to enforce his need for "respeck."

Imagine if you were in public and saw a family which included a toddler, and the mother was smoking a cigarette around him. Your concern for the child's health motivated you to tell the mother that doing so is not good for the child. And then imagine that the meathead father gets up in your face screaming "who the fuck are you to tell me how to raise MY family?" and works himself up into a lather and proceeds to beat your face to a pulp.

What you are arguing for is a kind of ghetto thug society where only those who are willing to endure violence are the only ones able to say anything. Everyone else, who may or may not have helpful thoughts to teach which might improve things, are relegated to bowing their heads in fear, keeping arms and legs inside the ride at all times. Is this your ideal society? No thank you, sir.

But this is only one of the possible outcomes of your perspective. All the way at the other end of the spectrum is the fact that when people are allowed to indulge their vanities, you end up with a race to the bottom where the most thin-skinned in the population win the "Victim Olympics." Consider the following website, and spend some time there. I assure you that the website is completely serious:

http://www.microaggressions.com/

"Microagressions", indeed. This is the end of the Progressive road. As I characterized it in another thread: "The World become Maternity Ward of Mewling Babies." Since there is no objective arbiter, when people are left to their tender feelings and precious egos, this is what you end up with. Imagine trying to socialize with such people! You would almost never be able to say anything if you had a scintilla of empathy for them and attempted to be a Good Person in speaking with them.

But the truly insidious element here is that such people have discovered the power of victimhood. By digging ever deeper into themselves for signs of hurt and pain, they have been allowed to wield their outrage as a club to silence others. Hence, Political Correctness, and the corresponding urge to supress free speech we see in certain sectors. As I mentioned earlier, Jonathan Haidt's exhaustive study of the psychology of liberals and conservatives shows that liberals score very highly on the "avoidance of harm" measure. (But you're not a liberal, right? Riiiiight) These types of folks are notorious for their guilt-tripping and political shakedowns of various people or institutions in order to get their way. The world has gone topsy-turvy where folks who scream the loudest about 'sensitivity" are in fact being quite agressive and

manipulative. I would characterize is as _aggression through victimology_. The racket is VERY effective and now ubiquitous among all the various political/racial/ethnic factions. In anti-Semetic circles, they have characterized the dynamic thusly: "The Jew cries out in pain as he strikes you." I think that's fairly accurate, and not just about organized Jewry. Any man reading who has been married can probably recall fights he's had with his wife...

Bringing this back to a more personal level. What if Bob had a hissy fit about my post concerning the Jewish Question? What if before I posted it, he had been spazzing out about "anti-Semites" and whatnot. I might think, "Damn...I think Bob is a fairly cool guy. Oooo, maybe he has family members who were killed in the war. Maybe I should just keep this to myself." And I might be inclined to indulge that line of thought if I were a woman. Or a Canadian. But I'm me. I'm a man. And an American. If I truly believe something to be true and important, I will not let the personal neuroses of others stop me from asserting myself. (Of course, this is only possible because 1. I'm not a close friend of Bob's, and 2. we are relatively anonymous here.)

"There are only two ways of telling the complete truth: anonymously and posthumously" -- Thomas Sowell

Do you remember when I first started broaching this topic on Facebook with you? I made a similar argument about Jews and immigration and your only rejoinder was to wonder what our Jewish friend Dan would think if he read it. That was it. Nothing more than a diversion from the topic to the question of offending someone else in order to shut me down. In fact, Dan is well aware of my opinions and is capable of discussing things with me calmly. He might not agree, but he doesn't excommunicate me for it. And that is why he gets my respect, and you got...well...something less than respect in the ensuing discussion.

[KacyRay]

You're right, SB. I'm a liberal. I've tried to mask the truth from you, but you're just too damn perceptive.

And all this talk of respect... just a ruse I use to advance a victimhood advocacy position.

And that talk we had about your Jewish views... just a front for a victimhood position.

And that debate we had about which is better: The Whopper or the Big Mac.... I don't know how you did it, but you were able to discover my liberal motives in that one too.

I give up. You win. Can't pull the wool over your eyes.

And to think... you were the only person here perceptive enough to spot the insidious liberal nature of my comment. Imagine that. All these less-perceptive folks thought I was just talking about respect, but no, not you... you see right through the nonsense straight to the heart of my liberal progressive propaganda.

[Serapis Bey]

Here's an example from my own life that I think might serve to illustrate things.

I mentioned the environment in which you work in my last post. It is an archetypal masculine environment. However, as I noted, it is also somewhat regimented. I also happen to work in an archetypcal masculine environment, but mine is a tad more anarchic.

A few months ago at work the whole crew was in the breakroom shooting the shit. Some topic concerning the job was brought up and it turns out that I was completely oblivious to a certain event. After asking for clarification, I wondered aloud, "How could I have missed that?" Then one of the alpha-dogs in the crew whom I know well barked at me (and I do mean barked -- he has a voice like a megaphone), "Because you're always out in fucking outer space, fool!" I could only smile, somewhat reddened by embarassment, because 1) I had to admit there was some truth to his statement (I tend to drift off into thinking Deep Thoughts when I'm bored at work), and 2) I had no witty comeback at the ready. Bear in mind this exchange occurred in front of the whole crew, all of whom got a good laugh out of it.

One of the other alpha dogs (whom I didn't know as well) came over to me to say with a smile, "That's just how he shows his love." I nodded knowingly, but inwardly felt disappointed. I already knew very well that such was the case, and did NOT take it personally, but this other fellow's need to clarify it for me indicated that I was not viewed as one of them and did not sit at the Big Boy's table.

At this point I could have done one of several other things. I COULD have "demanded respect" and engaged in a very calm and rational soliloquy stating, "you do NOT have the right to talk to me like that." And I can tell you exactly what would have happened. Everyone in the crew would have gone quiet. The alpha dog (let's call him Albert) would have grumbled or made some noises acknowledging me and the topic would have moved on to something else. Furthermore, I can assure you that I would never be spoken to like that again. The rest of the crew (or at least the alpha dogs) would have given me wide berth. In short, events would have unfolded in just the way you rationally think they should. But the reality is that I would have been given a wide berth not because they respected me, but because they viewed me as touchy and overly-sensitive. Oh, sure they would give me the outward signs of respect, and would never be so impolite as to tell me to my face what they really thought about me, but I would no longer be considered one of "them" and subsequently politely ignored when invitations to their reindeer games were sent out. In short, they would not have respected me in their hearts.

You are right about the reaction of alpha dogs to disrespect. With me and my jerkish tendencies, I've taunted Albert in the past. And he did not like it all. Not one bit. I could see the anger in his eyes. But he gives as good as he gets, and came right back at me with his own. I understand this is how the game is played. Funny enough, we still remain friends to this day, and spend time outside of work every now and then, even though we are completely different types of people. That's because I value his particular qualities, and he values my perceptiveness.

Now, in trying to tie all this subtle and complex analysis all together, I would quote myself from earlier in this thread for your benefit:

My view is that one is better able to absorb information and achieve one's goals if ego is PLASMA and not a SOLID. Otherwise, it is so easily shattered like glass.

[KacyRay]

At this point I could have done one of several other things. I COULD have "demanded respect" and engaged in a very calm and rational soliloquy stating, "you do NOT have the right to talk to me like that." And I can tell you exactly what would have happened. Everyone in the crew would have gone quiet. The alpha dog (let's call him Albert) would have grumbled or made some noises acknowledging me and the topic would have moved on to something else. Furthermore, I can assure you that I would never be spoken to like that again. The rest of the crew (or at least the alpha dogs) would have given me wide berth. In short, events would have unfolded in just the way you rationally think they should.

The story is interesting and illustrative. Moreover, I'm glad you posted this because it gives me a chance to clear up some bad assumptions you're making.

1. The "you do NOT have the right to talk to me that way" response is not one I would have ever endorsed. It's not an alpha response, and it's also not an effective one. For one, alpha's aren't so concerned with rights - they take more of a "Talk to me that way at your own peril" response. (But even that isn't typically stated explicitly. It's usually done through non-verbal communication.)

I can tell you that, in that situation, my knee-jerk response would probably have been something to the affect of smiling in agreement and nodding, saying "Alright motherfucker!", attempting to (hopefully) communicate some version "You got me this time, but I'll get you next time!" playful response.

I don't know if you remember a certain Facebook post I made... it was almost 2 years ago... I'd link you to it but I cannot access FB during certain hours of the day. I said (I think this is verbatim) "Those who have to demand respect have ceased to merit it".

Hopefully this lays rest to your apparent misconception about my view that one gains respect by stomping their foot and whining that they haven't received it.

2. Once again - I define "disrespect" as "The failure to demonstrate due respect". If this guy pointed out that you're in outer space most of the time, and it's the truth, then all he did was point out the truth. (I should note that the use of the word "fool" in his statement was clearly playful and I wouldn't really enter that into my analysis).

It seems to me you brought that situation on yourself. You opened yourself up for it by asking the question "How did I miss that", and someone playfully boxed your ears. I don't see this example as one of overt disrespect.

I have to point out here that while I assume you've accurately relayed the words spoken in this anecdote, there's no real indication as to what his non-verbal communications were. In order to accurately assess the appropriateness of his statement and your response to it, I'd have to know the entirety of what he was attempting to communicate. It sounds like he was being playful, but I can't know that for sure given only the information you've provided here. If I'm wrong on that, then it changes my entire assessment.

With that said, you're right about the implications contained in the other guy feeling the need to point it out to you. If that's how you're perceived, then that's how you're perceived. It sounds to me like you're being afforded the respect you've earned.

But this example misses my point entirely. Your explicit suggestion that I would endorse "demanding" respect brings the house of cards down. I've been clear about certain things. First off, I've defined respect as an internalized recognition of another's demonstrated abilities and/or value. This means that respect is a response in one person to the actions of another, no different than love, anger, admiration, etc. To demand respect that you have not earned is equally as irrational as demanding that someone love you, admire you, be attracted to you, or have any response whatsoever to you.

Look, if you have lost the ability to understand why it's a good idea to talk to people on online forums as though they are human beings, that's going to be your own poison to drink. It came as no surprise to me when, the moment you started posting comments here (after I got here) that you began rubbing people the wrong way.

3. If you believe that I don't get the same sorts of ribbing that you got from Albert from guys I work with all the time, you are mistaken. That sort of situation is common, and easy to negotiate. Let me give you an example of a situation that is much more illustrative of my point:

There’s a certain guy who works on this ship (we’ll call him Capt Crunch) that has a job closely related to mine. He works for the landing force, I work for the ship. This means we have two different chains of command. My ship operates in support of the landing force, so I’m in a support role. He is senior to me (which makes the situation interesting), he is an extreme alpha male (which makes the situation even more fun), and he’s a former drill instructor (which makes the situation basically perfect). He is loud, he is aggressive, he is a senior officer, he has about 3-4 years more experience at the job than I do, and he is in a position supported by my department. Basically, all the cards are in his favor (with the one very important exception being that I do not answer to him). .

I noticed early on in our working relationship that he had very little regard for my position. When I relayed the requirements the ship has in order to provide support, he routinely blew them off. He blew off the inspections we told him we needed to conduct. He allowed the LF to put stuff in containers they weren’t supposed to bring. He showed no regard for policy. He basically ran roughshod over the constraints we placed on the landing force’s load plan, and he wound up making himself look really bad in the process. But I allowed it to happen, knowing that he didn’t need my help in screwing things up. I told him stuff wouldn’t fit, but when he brought it to the ship, we packed it in. When it looked like a nightmare in the vehicle holds, my response was basically “Well, no kidding!” When HazMat started dripping out of containers, we just put them back on the pier. No cross words spoken – no complaints.

My department supported him every step of the way. We were always on time, and always got the job done.

Then when it came time to deploy, he gave us his plan to pick his stuff up off the beach. I received a phone call from him (from inside the ship) telling me that he wanted my guys to operate on a particular schedule. I told him that we would get the job done, but that I will determine how it gets done (thank you very much!). His response, paraphrased was “Alright, but god help you if you’re late on this!”.

That’s where the line was crossed. I very calmly said “Okay, you know how you’re feeling right now? I want you to know that it’s exactly how I felt when I was at your base two weeks ago sitting on a HMMWV, waiting for your guys to show up for an inspection. That’s how I felt when I was waiting for gear to arrive. That how I felt when (on and on and on)…” I politely and professionally began explaining to him that during our working relationship, I had given him no reason to believe I would fail to support, and that on the contrary, it was normally he who failed to operate as promised.

During the time I was saying this, I could hear him trying to interrupt. He started indicating that he was upset (started calling me CCO instead of Kacy – which basically formalizes the conversation), and telling me that I’d better not compare what I was doing to what he was doing.

I didn’t stop. I kept saying “Alright, just understand that how you feel now is how I’ve felt during this entire deployment”

Finally, he snapped “DON’T TALK TO ME LIKE I’M A LITTLE FUCKING KID!! I’VE BEEN IN THE MARINE CORPS 20 FUCKING YEARS!!!”

I didn’t stop. He hung up on me shortly thereafter, and since that time, we haven’t spoken informally to each other.

And that’s fine. But one thing is for sure – there is no question in his mind that, while my job is to support him, I do not answer to him. And not once since that time has he called down here trying to tell me how to run my shop.

The assertion (for my position) was necessary on my part. It wasn’t fun, because my relative rank ensured I could not return fire, nor could I demand that he speak politely to me. But that didn’t matter – what mattered was that, in refusing to kowtow to his aggressive manner, I set the expectation for the entire deployment. My department supports requirements, but no one other than the ship’s Commanding Officer will tell me how to run my department. Not Capt Crunch – not anyone.

Had I done otherwise, I'd have been his bitch for the entire deployment.

I can assure you that the words “You can’t talk to me that way!” never entered my mind. What entered my mind was “You can talk to me however you want, but what you can’t do is tell me how to run my fucking department”. And I communicated exactly that.

I asserted respect for my position. It is a respect I have earned, and it is a respect that I will be afforded. I respected his rank (as I must) and he will respect my position (as he must).

I realize that when you extract things such as rank form the equation, things aren’t quite so clear cut. But the principle is the same. That’s why Dan is no longer on my facebook page. Piss on my leg in my own house, and you’ll find yourself on the street.

(I know you like to believe that his issues with me were of my own making – but I’d be interested in hearing you explain why Dan is the only person I’ve had such issues with. There are plenty of very vocal far-right-wingers on my friends list, some of which I’ve been involved in very spirited debates with, all of which have been very polite, courteous, and dare I say… respectful – none of which I’ve had to even mention issues of respect with. In fact, I wish there were more of them. If you can’t see that Dan – specifically Dan – was the problem, then you’re suffering some serious cognitive dissonance.)

In short – no, I don’t endorse stomping your foot and “demanding” respect. Quite the opposite.

This is wisdom that I’ve gained at an extremely high price over the last few years, and it’s a price I continue to pay. But you can dispense with all this if you like, man. Let me know how it works out for you.

To summarize - Everyone should become a progressive liberal, castrate men, turn gay, abandon traditional mores, and vote democrat.

[Brant Gaede]

Are you a Marine or naval officer? It sounds like navy, but you had been a Marine. I suspect it was a choice you could make, but you had to make that choice before OCS(?).

Just curious: In Vietnam a Marine unit took casualties and ran out of medics. When a Marine was wounded the cry for help was "Up corpsman!" and the navy medic would jump up and go take care of the wounded. The NVA soldiers began shouting "Up corpsman" and then shot the poor bastards down. A nearby SF camp lent the Marines their own medics (not me) to take up the slack. Marines see navy as support, but the navy does much more than support Marines which constitute a derivative, not primary, military unit. The navy gives orders to the Marines, at least prior to deployment. There's probably an ambivalent area here depending on circumstances and what the CIC wants. In WWII the Central Pacific theater was commanded by Admiral King back in Washington. It sent Marines to their needless deaths at Tarawa.

--Brant

[9thdoctor]

But do you not remember that both T.D. and I were embarrassed by you and FOR you whenever the public bickering occurred? He and I discussed it.

Wow, look at all this personal shit getting aired! T.D.= Tim, right?

[KacyRay]

Brant: I'm a Marine Officer stationed on a Navy amphibious ship.

https://www.facebook.com/Kearsarge

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Kearsarge_%28LHD-3%29

I'm the Combat Cargo Officer for the ship.

[Brant Gaede]

I saw the aircraft carrier Kearsarge--later sunk for an artificial reef--in San Francisco in the summer of 1963. I was watching Willie McCovey play for the Giants at Candlestick Park and there she was gliding by. Mom also took me to a Pete Seeger open air concert to the south. I had flown in from New Jersey on a TWA Lockheed Super Constellation, shoulda took a jet. A year later I was enlisted in the army going to Ft. Ord for Basic Training. There were a bunch of us all wisecracking away. I remember a Marine lieutenant who kept to himself. I always wondered after I left the service what happened to him. I signed up for photography school at Ft. Dix, NJ, but was recruited into SF in Basic. My brother, Marc, went into the Marines a year later. He almost died of pneumonia in Boot Camp. He set the M-14 small arms qualification record at Pendleton. One day in formation the gunny said we need three volunteers for photography school: you, you and you. One of them was him. He became a great photographer. He served for a while on the USS Iwo Jima. You can see the photo on his Web site. He didn't go to Vietnam. He did go to eastern Europe after his service around 1970 and jumping out of a communist aircraft with communist equipment--I'm not sure whose actually--he suffered a double malfunction and just got the reserve open before he went splat. I never sky dived but had 13 static line jumps, the last out of a helicopter in North Carolina. I remember the Marine in jump school in Benning in 1965 who shamed all us army guys by doing pull ups dangling on a steel I-beam 30 feet off the ground. Army SF only respects Rangers, Marines and Navy Seals and anybody who fights. When I came back from Vietnam I was discharged in Oakland, CA after successfully slipping a Marine Corps combat knife through customs. I hadn't slept for I don't sleep on airplanes. Then the bastards took as much time it seemed to process me out as the flight. I hung that knife inside my uniform over my shoulder--rob me kill me--went outside and got a cab from a long line of cabs and asked the driver to take me to an inexpensive hotel where I slept a lot. Then I walked down to Hertz and said I want a car to drive to Arizona. Cash. The wanted a local reference. I took out my address book. A deposit, $500. I counted it out. Driving south I saw a Hippie hitchhiking. There weren't any I knew of before I went to Vietnam (66-67). I was in civies with a military driver license and my uniform on a back seat hanger. Two girls in a car started chasing my full sized Ford--or I started chasing them. Don't remember who started it but hell! It was California. We kept passing each other. (what was I doing going to Arizona?) Hitting 70 or so with the gals just behind the CHP turned on the reds. He gave us lectures and let us go, but he let them go first so I lost them. Stopping for a rest just south of LA I found myself at the closed front gate of Disneyland. (My bro would later marry the CEO's daughter. His father-in-law, E. Cardon Walker, was the only flight-deck officer on his aircraft carrier to survive WWII.) That's interesting, I thought, and continued to Camp P. to see my brother who was living the high life with his buds and his sky diving. He also borrowed money from me I never got back. His story: He scored very high on some aptitude test so some junior officers came to see him trying to get him to go to officer's school. He said you can talk to me but you have to do so while I'm developing these prints. So they yabbered away while he worked away and--they failed; he didn't go. Too smart and too much his own man. And I enrolled as a junior at the University of Arizona.

That's the way it was back then.

--Brant

RIP, Robert Johnson, KIA Con Thien May 1967

___________________________________________________________

edit:opps! the carrier I saw was the Oriskany

[Brant Gaede]

Brant: I'm a Marine Officer stationed on a Navy amphibious ship.

https://www.facebook.com/Kearsarge

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Kearsarge_%28LHD-3%29

I'm the Combat Cargo Officer for the ship.

I was going to ask you a question about your combat cargo, but it's none of anyone's business not in the business.

--Brant