Just re-started Atlas Shrugged


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So I finished the book...

And your changes to the Declaration of Independence, the Constitution of the United States, the Gettysbugh Address and Barry Goldwater's acceptance speech at the Cow Palace in 1963 oops [brant is absolutely correct Summer of 1964 - duh election in November 1964] will be in future posts before your tackle Shakespeare and the Old Testament?

Sorry to be rude, however, your point is?

I dont understand any of this..???

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So I finished the book...

And your changes to the Declaration of Independence, the Constitution of the United States, the Gettysbugh Address and Barry Goldwater's acceptance speech at the Cow Palace in 1963 oops [brant is absolutely correct Summer of 1964 - duh election in November 1964] will be in future posts before your tackle Shakespeare and the Old Testament?

Sorry to be rude, however, your point is?

I dont understand any of this..???

I don't either. Did Derek suggest rewritting Galt's speech? You've gotten too sarcastically cryptic, Adam, and off an old conversation.

--Brant

give the man a break

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Michael:

Agreed.

He is my favorite of the Ayn holy trinity.

I believe he was going to teach philosophy when he decided to stop making the theiving scum start to "pay" for their theft.

Ayn's ridiculous non-understanding of actual conflict should be ridiculed because it is highly improbable, verging on impossible/ridiculous to assert that you could shell a steel plant and not kill folks.

Or even blow up a housing project.

Has there ever been a steel mill located on a seacoast as to be within range of naval guns?

--Brant

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Has there ever been a steel mill located on a seacoast as to be within range of naval guns?

--Brant

I always thought that made no sense ... the location alone was absurd...

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So I finished the book...

And your changes to the Declaration of Independence, the Constitution of the United States, the Gettysbugh Address and Barry Goldwater's acceptance speech at the Cow Palace in 1963 oops [brant is absolutely correct Summer of 1964 - duh election in November 1964] will be in future posts before your tackle Shakespeare and the Old Testament?

Sorry to be rude, however, your point is?

I dont understand any of this..???

My apology Derek...I was alluding to changing a great work like the ones I mentioned.

Not sure where you were going with your critique...

Would you change Mona Lisa's smile?

A...

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My apology Derek...I was alluding to changing a great work like the ones I mentioned.

Not sure where you were going with your critique...

Would you change Mona Lisa's smile?

I would get her teeth fixed so she could give a big pearly shiny smile.

Ba'al Chatzaf

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My apology Derek...I was alluding to changing a great work like the ones I mentioned.

Not sure where you were going with your critique...

Would you change Mona Lisa's smile?

I would get her teeth fixed so she could give a big pearly shiny smile.

Ba'al Chatzaf

You suppose to improve upon a masterpiece?

--Brant

(I'd change her hair)

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I didn't intend to critique the novel itself, more I was thinking about the actions that character made and how they would be perceived in the real world. The book can stay the same but I think his actions are suspect....

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I didn't intend to critique the novel itself, more I was thinking about the actions that character made and how they would be perceived in the real world. The book can stay the same but I think his actions are suspect....

Understood. Many of her characters are archetypal characters and therefore have no reality action that would have them be more real to us.

An archetypal character is the textual manifestation of a particular "kind" of person. These characters display stereotypical personalities, behaviors and characteristics regardless of how unique they may appear at first glance. Character archetypes are used by many writers and filmmakers as devices to help present a story in an easily understandable way, and they are based in a long history of archetypal traditions that date back to some of the oldest written stories available.

Examples below:

The Hero Archetype

The traditional archetypal "hero" character found in a majority of books and films demonstrates characteristics valued by his or her primary culture, often in a hugely magnified form. For example, a male American "superhero" character is likely to show signs of strength, be patriotic, and have a tendency towards resolving problems using physical means. Archetypal heroes often strive to complete a specific quest to defeat evil.

The Innocent Archetype

The archetypal "innocent" character is a naive individual who knows little of the evils in the world. The "innocent" is generally young and lacks "real-world" experience, and as such, he or she is more likely to suffer at the hands of others. For example, a female "innocent" may be a young girl who has lived a privileged and uneventful life and is forced to experience the painful realities of the outside world after leaving home.

The Villain Archetype

The "villain" archetype is a character who displays characteristics of pure evil. Typical villains are self-centered, power-hungry and interested only in achieving their personal goals, usually at the cost of others. An example of an archetypal villain would be a power-hungry politician who has his political enemies assassinated to ensure his victory in an upcoming election.

The Sage Archetype

The "sage" archetype is a character who is wise, very old and generally helps the hero in his or her quest. The sage can be a man or woman, and he or she often lives in relative seclusion from others. The sage's hermit-like lifestyle and eccentric behavior sets him or her apart from other characters. An example of a sage character would be the wise old wizard who provides thoughtful advice to the young adventurer.

Additional Archetypes

Traditional literary and Jungian archetype lists include more than 30 different kinds of characters found in many books and films. The "witch" archetype, for instance, is often the "old hag" or "old crone" who seeks to entrap the hero of a story; the "trickster" archetype is a character who tricks others into getting his or her own way. The "temptress" archetype is the beautiful female character interested in seducing the hero or protagonist of a story, whereas the "damsel in distress" archetype is a character who is helpless and in need of rescue by the hero. Finally, the "mother- or father-figure" archetype is a character who acts in a paternal or maternal way toward the hero. These characters often provide the protagonist with parental advice.

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The Hero Archetype

The traditional archetypal "hero" character found in a majority of books and films demonstrates characteristics valued by his or her primary culture, often in a hugely magnified form. For example, a male American "superhero" character is likely to show signs of strength, be patriotic, and have a tendency towards resolving problems using physical means. Archetypal heroes often strive to complete a specific quest to defeat evil.

The Innocent Archetype

The archetypal "innocent" character is a naive individual who knows little of the evils in the world. The "innocent" is generally young and lacks "real-world" experience, and as such, he or she is more likely to suffer at the hands of others. For example, a female "innocent" may be a young girl who has lived a privileged and uneventful life and is forced to experience the painful realities of the outside world after leaving home.

The Villain Archetype

The "villain" archetype is a character who displays characteristics of pure evil. Typical villains are self-centered, power-hungry and interested only in achieving their personal goals, usually at the cost of others. An example of an archetypal villain would be a power-hungry politician who has his political enemies assassinated to ensure his victory in an upcoming election.

The Sage Archetype

The "sage" archetype is a character who is wise, very old and generally helps the hero in his or her quest. The sage can be a man or woman, and he or she often lives in relative seclusion from others. The sage's hermit-like lifestyle and eccentric behavior sets him or her apart from other characters. An example of a sage character would be the wise old wizard who provides thoughtful advice to the young adventurer.

Additional Archetypes

Traditional literary and Jungian archetype lists include more than 30 different kinds of characters found in many books and films. The "witch" archetype, for instance, is often the "old hag" or "old crone" who seeks to entrap the hero of a story; the "trickster" archetype is a character who tricks others into getting his or her own way. The "temptress" archetype is the beautiful female character interested in seducing the hero or protagonist of a story, whereas the "damsel in distress" archetype is a character who is helpless and in need of rescue by the hero. Finally, the "mother- or father-figure" archetype is a character who acts in a paternal or maternal way toward the hero. These characters often provide the protagonist with parental advice.

So many to choose from. So little time.

--Brant

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Joseph Campbell is a good author to read on heroic types.

A hero has a Quest. John Galt's quest was to stop the motor of the world. He had great faith that good would come of that.

Frodo's Quest was to destroy the Ring of Power.

Jesus' Quest was to shed His Blood for the Remission of Sin.

Jesus and Galt had this in common --- if they succeed Evil will be vanquished once and for all.

They were both wrong.

Ba'al Chatzaf

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Jesus and John Galt had another thing in common.

They are what is called "steadfast characters" in fiction writing. This means they don't have a character arc. They are what they are from beginning to end. They don't change.

Oh, there is that thing about the 40 days of temptation of Jesus, but in the story he doesn't show any signs that he was ever really tempted. And there is one exception--he did have one moment of moral weakness on the cross when he cried out. But that did not seem to impact any of the people around him for better or worse or impact what came later. And, for the reader, it seems like a reasonable cry of pain.

The only thing that changed in Galt is that he got pissed off and decided to engineer a strike. But he never changed inside.

The problem with steadfast characters is that they are intrinsically boring for storytelling, even with good plots.

So how to increase interest?

Easy. Make the stories about how the people around them change. Give those people character arcs. The normal arc is XXX is one way, XXX interacts with Steadfast Character, XXX becomes transformed by adopting elements from Steadfast Character. The rest is the rest after that initial arc, but it is still interesting. Sometimes these characters are tested. They succeed or fail. Sometimes they become disciples. Sometimes they betray their transformation. And so on. And sometimes they just go on with their lives and we don't hear from them again.

Look at the works, i.e., the New Testament and Atlas Shrugged, and you see that the surrounding characters are precisely why Jesus and Galt both work story-wise. The meaty stories are about the surrounding characters. Without their transformation even the crucifixion story is not all that interesting.

Michael

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Jesus and John Galt had another thing in common.

They are what is called "steadfast characters" in fiction writing. This means they don't have a character arc. They are what they are from beginning to end. They don't change.

Bravisimo! I think you have just made my day. That is an insight I do not think I would have gotten myself. Yes, that is way I never "got" Galt. In a sense he was not a real human being. He was a archetype. All the others I have met somewhere, sometime, somehow. I have met Francisco on a few occasions and even played chess with him. I have not yet met Reardon, but I can imagine him actually existing and recasting his views on both sex and politics. I have met more Stadlers than I would have liked to. They are all over.

Ba'al Chatzaf

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  • 2 weeks later...
  • 1 month later...

currently listening to "the moon is a harsh mistress"

GREAT BOOK - pay special attention about meetings and voting.

That is how Plouffe and O'bama's brain Axelrod destroyed the vaunted Clinton machine with a simple plan because these were caucuses, you just wait out the unserious and take the precinct.

Frankly, I was astounded by the Clinton arrogance in the first "vote" in the Iowa caucuses. .

A...

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currently listening to "the moon is a harsh mistress"

One of my canonical books. It stands in a place of honor next to Ursula La Guinn's "The Dispossessed" and "Atlas Shrugged" by You Know Who. When Heinlein was good, he was very every good.

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currently listening to "the moon is a harsh mistress"

GREAT BOOK - pay special attention about meetings and voting.

A...

And now that I know that you are a super computer, I'll be sure to avoid challenging you to a game of chess : )

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currently listening to "the moon is a harsh mistress"

GREAT BOOK - pay special attention about meetings and voting.

A...

And now that I know that you are a super computer, I'll be sure to avoid challenging you to a game of chess : )

Lol...

Well there have been numerous attempts to organize "objectivist/libertarian/anarcho-capitalists" to structure and commit to a chess "tournament."

You and I discussed it off the board.

Have not figured out how to herd all us "cats/pussies."

A...

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  • 3 months later...

a new thought

Early in the book (Atlas Shrugged) Dagny, and thus the author, takes issue with the train conductor who will not cross an intersection where the crossing light was out of order, he feared what might happen if another train was coming. Dagny takes control of the situation and orders the train through. All is well

Later in the book, the conductor goes against protocol by following the orders of a looter/parasite/politician and takes a train into a tunnel where the collapse occurs and hundreds die. All is not well

What does this mean?

You are damned if you do, damned if you don't?

Actually I haven't re-read those passages so my recollection of them is possibly all wrong...... I know Selene will show up with the transcripts :smile:

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