Selene Posted July 12, 2015 Share Posted July 12, 2015 Rand on Roark's work being like an underground spring that pops up around the country. One was a gas station if I remember correctly.A... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brant Gaede Posted July 12, 2015 Share Posted July 12, 2015 Rand on Roark's work being like an underground spring that pops up around the country. One was a gas station if I remember correctly.A...Gas stations once were worth great designing.--Brant Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moralist Posted July 13, 2015 Author Share Posted July 13, 2015 Greg sees debt in moral terms. You see it in practical economic ones. You're talking past each other.You got that right, Brant. The US economy is built upon Creditism... of having without first working to earn the right to own.So you naturally get exactly the boom/bust economy you deserve. If you like that, it's fine with me. Take it... it's all yours. Having a home without actually owning it is just renting it from a mortgage company. As long as you are willing to pay at least double it's market value, you might be able to own it someday.As an unconventional outside the box alternative, I rented for most of my life while I worked to save up the money to build a home I actually own for less than a quarter of it's present market value (Zillow 900K).Because I have zero participation in, and zero exposure to the debt based economy, I experience only boom and have for decades. This is because living by different Capitalist standards of solvency produces different economic consequences which diverge from from the insolvent Creditist economy.This is how I create my own economic climate very much like the difference between prospering productive Capitalist Galt's Gulch and the rotting decaying crumbling debt based Creditist world of the moochers and the looters. The beauty of how I choose to live is that it doesn't prevent you or anyone else from doing whatever you choose,because you are the ones who get the consequences you deserve... and not me. For I get my own consequences that I deserve. This is how I lay claim to American freedom... by working and saving to earn the right to enjoy it. So if there is anyone here who isn't a free American, don't blame the f**king government. You don't deserve it, because you haven't yet worked to earn the right to own it.Greg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brant Gaede Posted July 13, 2015 Share Posted July 13, 2015 Some people, especially young people, don't want to smooth out the volatility in their lives so they take chances. Unfortunately, a whole generation is going down the student debt tube trapped in the momentum of a higher education mythos. People owning homes they shouldn't helped do the same thing in the first 5 - 7 years of this century. The use of debt has gotten completely out of control. It got out of control in China and it had too in the US in the late 1990s when the Fed goosed the stock market up to unsustainable highs. Debt is walking through a minefield to save the length of the walk. Good luck.--Brant Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brant Gaede Posted July 13, 2015 Share Posted July 13, 2015 (shrug) So what?Do you want a pat the head? GregFor doing what I should? No. I just point out borrowing and repaying is a normal part of doing business in a market society. Some people have more cash than they can use at times, other people have less. Borrowing evens out the money, puts it in motion and helps to keep the pot boiling. It is called business. Without loans, the Interstate Highway System would not have been built. Without loans no earth man would have walked on the Moon in the 20 th century. Without loans I would have been doomed to pay rent for 45 years. Now I own my house outright except for the property taxes I am compelled to pay.Without mortgage loans houses wouldn't have been so expensive. You acted rationally in that dominant matrix. However, renting is not so inferior if you crunch the actual numbers and don't mind the landlord and his rights and understand whether he understands he is your servant respecting his house, your home. If not, move out. If your home can be gone in a tax lien it's not true ownership. Let the landlord worry about that and the plumbing bills and the painting and--if his--his appliances. Personally, I don't want a landlord. I don't want to see him driving up my driveway. I like to run people off. It's my pleasure!--Brant Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moralist Posted July 13, 2015 Author Share Posted July 13, 2015 Without mortgage loans houses wouldn't have been so expensive.So true, Brant.They're not expensive if you build your own for cash.However, renting is not so inferior if you crunch the actual numbers and don't mind the landlord and his rights and understand whether he understands he is your servant respecting his house, your home.I totally agree! Renting is an excellent way to develop character by learning how to be a good steward with what belongs to others. Every home I rented was in better condition when I moved out than when I moved in. Taking care of what wasn't mine made it possible to enjoy excellent relationships with my landlords because I treated their house as if it was my own. This is how to earn the right to own your own home. The essence of Capitalism is WIN / WIN business transactions. Greg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brant Gaede Posted July 13, 2015 Share Posted July 13, 2015 Without mortgage loans houses wouldn't have been so expensive.So true, Brant.They're not expensive if you build your own for cash.Not to argue but I can't confirm your statement from my personal experiences. However, my electrician buddy 25 years ago may have used debt--I don't know--but he cut his costs in half building his home by barter exchange of his electrical skills with other skilled professionals. They worked on his house for free and he did electrical work for free for them. (He also told me he didn't know any fellow electrician who didn't have back pain from their work and he used a chiropractor. [Are you an exception?--just curious.])You yourself have obviously been using interest cost valuations as part of the cost of ownership. They may or may not be bogus. If construction costs are $200,000 from savings or $20,000 from savings plus 4% on a bank mortgage loan of 30 years for $180,000 and your costs are top to bottom retail (you don't do any hands on work), then you may be stating that the $180,000 you save out of pocket to start with--you have the money for you saved it up--can be more productive or wealth creating in your hands than the 4% the bank would otherwise get from you. (This is much too simple except to illustrate these basics. I mean, who wants a 30 year mortgage except people who can't save up this money and think this through and who also borrow--that's the way of today more than yesterday--for cars, home appliances, a new stereo system, etc.? After buying their new home for $15,000 in 1955 with 20 year mortgage debt my father and step-mother saved for everything else and drove old cars. My Dad's first new car was when I went to a car dealership and negotiated a cash purchase on a clearance sale of a 1978 Chey Caprice, a beautiful car, for $8000 against $10,000 list and he signed the check. With a loan I might have gotten $1000 off. Dunno. I do know if you save money you value money differently than if it comes seemingly like a gift from a bank making for wasteful spending. Homes are full of junk purchased that way. It's consumption over production.)Borrowing is always a calculated risk and you will give up some serious control over your life to help pay for it. It may or may not be worth it. The calculation is always personal but frequently irrational as from lack of proper critical thinking--like over in Greece where they can't afford the borrowed money they spent yesterday. They are and will be defaulting and will now live in greater poverty wondering how to get money they never learned to produce.Most of the world is going Greece and the world is starting to shit in their pants at the almost dead canary in the mine they cannot get out of, only run around in like trapped rats. Their only hope is the air the Keynesians keep pumping in. The money makers are cutting off Greece's air. Greece can prolong the situation a little by regaining its own sovereign currency and pumping in its own debt air. Then deflationary euro debt will become inflationary Drachma(sp.?) debt. There is one way for Greece to save itself, but they are so ignorant there is actually only European servitude and poverty. BTW, It's "The American Way."--Brantwe need to try it ourselves Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BaalChatzaf Posted July 13, 2015 Share Posted July 13, 2015 xGreg sees debt in moral terms. You see it in practical economic ones. You're talking past each other.Even in moral terms debt has its uses. It can make possible a purchase at a bargain price available at a particular time but not later on. The savings could more than counter balance the interest on the load. It also puts spare un-working cash to good use. The lender wins, the borrower wins and the economy is all the better for it. That sounds like a moral justification to me.Ba'al Chatzaf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brant Gaede Posted July 13, 2015 Share Posted July 13, 2015 Greg sees debt in moral terms. You see it in practical economic ones. You're talking past each other.Even in moral terms debt has its uses. It can make possible a purchase at a bargain price available at a particular time but not later on. The savings could more than counter balance the interest on the load. It also puts spare un-working cash to good use. The lender wins, the borrower wins and the economy is all the better for it. That sounds like a moral justification to me.Ba'al ChatzafOh, sure. It's moral to drive the Interstate at 75 mph. It's immoral to drive it at 125. Greg avoids all this by flying. It's safer.--Brantthanks for sticking up for 75--do you know you can go faster--put that pedal down, clown!--or are you rational and know that but don't do that?I have used debt to varying extents throughout my adult life--would I be better off today, all else equal, if I had religiously eschewed it?--much better off: I now think of all debt as a cursed waste of capital--not all wasted or there'd be no prosperity at all--but the prosperity we do not have, generally, is beyond imagination--debt is addictive; it's easier to get off heroin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moralist Posted July 13, 2015 Author Share Posted July 13, 2015 Without mortgage loans houses wouldn't have been so expensive.So true, Brant.They're not expensive if you build your own for cash.Not to argue but I can't confirm your statement from my personal experiences.You don't need to, Brant...My experience only matters to me because it's the just and deserved consequences I set into motion by my own actions. Everyone else has their own consequences they set into motion by their own actions that only matter to them. I go my own way independent of what others choose to do. Is this not the message of Atlas Shrugged???However, my electrician buddy 25 years ago may have used debt--I don't know--but he cut his costs in half building his home by barter exchange of his electrical skills with other skilled professionals. They worked on his house for free and he did electrical work for free for them. (He also told me he didn't know any fellow electrician who didn't have back pain from their work and he used a chiropractor. [Are you an exception?--just curious.])I didn't barter, and just saved up money I earned working for others... but I did find small reliable competent local businessmen who shared my values very much like Dagney did to make her railroad run. They all offered good deals to work for cash. That's how I kept costs down. My wife and I also did a lot of the building ourselves. It was a real life pioneer adventure.My work keeps me fit and I exercise with kettlebells to keep my back strong. (Thanks again for the tip Mike! )I'm 67 and will work until I'm dead. I love what I do because it's my calling. Everyone is called by God to fulfill a purpose whether or not they believe in Him. You'll know what it is if you truly love your work because it is that love which is God's love expressed through you... and not your own. Whoever answers their calling by doing what's morally right, will NEVER have to worry about money for their whole life. That is God's promise and He ALWAYS keeps his promises. Money is just a symptom of honoring what you were called by God to do, And fulfilling your purpose here invites blessings beyond your wildest dreams to flow down from Heaven and into your life. You yourself have obviously been using interest cost valuations as part of the cost of ownership.I have absolutely no idea what you're talking about. I'm not a freaking accountant. I'm just a tradesman. All I know is that we live in our home for cheaper than the cost of renting. The total cost of the raw land the complete development process and the actual building ran us under $200k and yielded four and a half times the equity. Ironically, it's equity we'll never use because we will never need to borrow money on it! Most of the world is going Greece...What do I care? That world belongs to others. I did not make what it is. They made it what it is. It's their world... so let them f***ing choke on what they made! I don't go the way of the world. I go my own way... and the world around me goes with me because I made it what it is by doing what I'm supposed to do. Greg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Selene Posted July 13, 2015 Share Posted July 13, 2015 Pretty simple...And Jesus answering said unto them, Render to Caesar the things that are Caesar's, and to God the things that are God's. And they marvelled at him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brant Gaede Posted July 13, 2015 Share Posted July 13, 2015 Most of your neighbors are where they are because of work and debt and likely have nothing to fall back on. Most people are like that. When the SHTF you'll want them to think you are like them or they'll crawl to your door seeking food and water. After a while they'll see you're the only one not losing any weight and -- well, you see how this is going.--Brantmaybe they're Mormons--problem solved? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moralist Posted July 13, 2015 Author Share Posted July 13, 2015 Pretty simple...And Jesus answering said unto them, Render to Caesar the things that are Caesar's, and to God the things that are God's. And they marvelled at him.Yeah, the slimy slithering devious snakes marvelled that they couldn't trap Him. Life is simple.Just put doing what's right first... and everything else takes care of itself. Greg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brant Gaede Posted July 13, 2015 Share Posted July 13, 2015 If I do bad first everything else takes care of itself too.--Brantbad to the bonenaughty can be nice but avoid vice (and lice)hey, how about bad to good--you know, redemption (better story than goody, goody, goody)https://youtu.be/pCpeeaIfF9c Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moralist Posted July 14, 2015 Author Share Posted July 14, 2015 hey, how about bad to good--you know, redemption (better story than goody, goody, goody)Everyone starts out bad... that's how you learn to be good. Greg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brant Gaede Posted July 14, 2015 Share Posted July 14, 2015 hey, how about bad to good--you know, redemption (better story than goody, goody, goody)Everyone starts out bad... that's how you learn to be good. GregJesus. Original sin comes to OL.--Brantyou couldn't imagine it until it happened Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moralist Posted July 14, 2015 Author Share Posted July 14, 2015 Jesus. Original sin comes to OL.Is that a prayer? No need to worry about OS... you don't own anything until you're old enough to know better.Greg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Selene Posted July 14, 2015 Share Posted July 14, 2015 Jesus. Original sin comes to OL.Is that a prayer? No need to worry about OS... you don't own anything until you're old enough to know better.Greg[HaySus] Jesus is the original illegal alien... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moralist Posted July 14, 2015 Author Share Posted July 14, 2015 Jesus. Original sin comes to OL.Is that a prayer? No need to worry about OS... you don't own anything until you're old enough to know better.Greg[HaySus] Jesus is the original illegal alien...He got deported... but like the other illegal aliens He's back again. Greg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Selene Posted July 14, 2015 Share Posted July 14, 2015 Jesus. Original sin comes to OL.Is that a prayer? No need to worry about OS... you don't own anything until you're old enough to know better.Greg[HaySus] Jesus is the original illegal alien...He got deported... but like the other illegal aliens He's back again. GregThe Biblical Bipeds should take this show on the high road to heaven on Earth...lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brant Gaede Posted July 14, 2015 Share Posted July 14, 2015 Jesus. Original sin comes to OL.Is that a prayer? No need to worry about OS... you don't own anything until you're old enough to know better.GregYou jut left me off the hook.--Brantnot old enough Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moralist Posted July 28, 2015 Author Share Posted July 28, 2015 The veneer is wearing paper thin...Just one portent to what's coming mid September.http://www.cnbc.com/2015/07/27/why-this-china-stock-market-plunge-could-be-different.html Greg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BaalChatzaf Posted July 30, 2015 Share Posted July 30, 2015 What begins????? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
merjet Posted July 30, 2015 Share Posted July 30, 2015 What begins????? A bear market in Chinese stocks. See post #1. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moralist Posted July 30, 2015 Author Share Posted July 30, 2015 What begins?????America will be shaken again in 2015, just as it was in 2001 and 2008.Greg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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