A refreshing ray of sunlight - Tao of Rand

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

I rarely comment on comments on Ayn Rand in the mainstream press, but this one is a delight:

The tao of Ayn Rand
by James Delingpole
31 August 2013
The Spectator

From the article:

I’m now half way through Atlas Shrugged and I’m loving almost every moment. But Ayn Rand isn't someone you read for pleasure, I’m beginning to realise. She’s someone you read so you can underline sentences and scrawl in the margins ‘Yes’, ‘God that is so TRUE!’ and ‘YES!!!’

It's rare to find a mainstream writer just discovering Rand and letting it fly before looking around to study the terrain. He says a lot more, but I'll leave just the first paragraph up as a teaser.

Delingpole is not all gush for Rand (he dislikes her writing style, for instance) and he makes some mistakes like calling AS a satire (which he corrected in the comments), but he is definitely bitten hard by the Rand-bug.

I love his enthusiasm and spunk.

When, in the comments, one of those oh-so-superior dudes who always come out of the woodworks when someone new discusses Rand (probably an O-fundamentalist, but I'm not sure) told him maybe he should finish the book before commenting on it, and maybe his interest is in Rand is "less than academic," he fired back with this:

Bollocks to that. I don't believe there is going to be a change of tone so dramatic that it will alter my view on what the book is. Also, bollocks to your snootiness. If there's one thing that puts me off Randism - and similar rules apply to libertarians - it's the up-their-own-arsiness of Randians.

And excuse me but what on earth does "Could it be that your interest in Ayn Rand is less than academic"? Who are you: Henry bloody James?

I wish this guy luck. After the big initial splash of Rand in his life dies down, he has a long road ahead given the culture in England (and the world in general).

I have a feeling I would like him if we ever met.

Michael

[Selene]

YES!!

[Francisco Ferrer]

Delingpole is not all gush for Rand (he dislikes her writing style, for instance) and he makes some mistakes like calling AS a satire (which he corrected in the comments), but he is definitely bitten hard by the Rand-bug.

Among other things, Atlas Shrugged is a satire. Its depiction of an economy breaking down under a barrage of increasingly impossible directives from dim-witted and corrupt bureaucrats is not futuristic fantasy. It was a slap at disturbing developments in the decade in which she wrote (and which, unfortunately, continue to the present).

Isaac Deutscher once made a similar observation about 1984: it wasn't about the future so much as the present.

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

Satire is a form of comedy. Call it comedic social criticism.

That is for those who use the hierarchical form of concept-making.

While there are some satirical elements in a few sporadic parts of Atlas Shrugged, I would hardly call the book a comedy.

Michael

[Ellen Stuttle]

I rarely comment on comments on Ayn Rand in the mainstream press, but this one is a delight:

The tao of Ayn Rand

by James Delingpole

31 August 2013The Spectator

[....]

Delingpole is not all gush for Rand (he dislikes her writing style, for instance) and he makes some mistakes like calling AS a satire (which he corrected in the comments), but he is definitely bitten hard by the Rand-bug.

Here's his correction comment:

James Delingpole misterioso 5 days ago −

I grant you that "satire" isn't quite the mot juste. Parable? Moral fable?

When I was partway into reading Atlas the first time, I started to think that it resembled a Medieval morality play. Then I started to think that it was an allegory similar to The Pilgrim's Progress, which tale Delingpole refers to in his article. By the time I finished Atlas, I'd come to think of it as a deliberate attempt at a new mythology

Ellen

[Darrell Hougen]

I rarely comment on comments on Ayn Rand in the mainstream press, but this one is a delight:

The tao of Ayn Rand

by James Delingpole

31 August 2013The Spectator

[....]

Delingpole is not all gush for Rand (he dislikes her writing style, for instance) and he makes some mistakes like calling AS a satire (which he corrected in the comments), but he is definitely bitten hard by the Rand-bug.

Here's his correction comment:

James Delingpole misterioso 5 days ago −

I grant you that "satire" isn't quite the mot juste. Parable? Moral fable?

When I was partway into reading Atlas the first time, I started to think that it resembled a Medieval morality play. Then I started to think that it was an allegory similar to The Pilgrim's Progress, which tale Delingpole refers to in his article. By the time I finished Atlas, I'd come to think of it as a deliberate attempt at a new mythology

Ellen

I like the notion of a "moral fable." I'd never really thought of it that way --- just as fiction, but "fiction" is too general. Of course, it is quite a bit longer than Aesop's fables, but it attempts to tell what could happen --- what the consequences would be --- if the world were run a certain way and what the outcome might be if those with a proper morality would stand on principle.

I don't see it as an attempt at a new mythology. That sounds like a more apt description of Scientology, for example, not of a philosophy based on reason.

Darrell

P.S. Just returned from vacation and am still sun burned.

[Samson Corwell]

I rarely comment on comments on Ayn Rand in the mainstream press, but this one is a delight:

The tao of Ayn Rand

by James Delingpole

31 August 2013The Spectator

[....]

Delingpole is not all gush for Rand (he dislikes her writing style, for instance) and he makes some mistakes like calling AS a satire (which he corrected in the comments), but he is definitely bitten hard by the Rand-bug.

Here's his correction comment:

James Delingpole misterioso 5 days ago −

I grant you that "satire" isn't quite the mot juste. Parable? Moral fable?

When I was partway into reading Atlas the first time, I started to think that it resembled a Medieval morality play. Then I started to think that it was an allegory similar to The Pilgrim's Progress, which tale Delingpole refers to in his article. By the time I finished Atlas, I'd come to think of it as a deliberate attempt at a new mythology

Ellen

I like the notion of a "moral fable." I'd never really thought of it that way --- just as fiction, but "fiction" is too general. Of course, it is quite a bit longer than Aesop's fables, but it attempts to tell what could happen --- what the consequences would be --- if the world were run a certain way and what the outcome might be if those with a proper morality would stand on principle.

I don't see it as an attempt at a new mythology. That sounds like a more apt description of Scientology, for example, not of a philosophy based on reason.

Darrell

P.S. Just returned from vacation and am still sun burned.

It can certainly be said to have evolved into a mythology. One only needs to look at the reference's to John Galt throughout the world. Rand really took the time to develop Objectivism after she was done with fiction.

[Francisco Ferrer]

Satire is a form of comedy. Call it comedic social criticism.

That is for those who use the hierarchical form of concept-making.

While there are some satirical elements in a few sporadic parts of Atlas Shrugged, I would hardly call the book a comedy.

Michael

Calling satire a form of comedy is equivalent to calling animated film a form of comedy. That is to say, it is in every single case--except in the many cases where it is not.

We need look no further than Orwell's 1984 and Animal Farm to find political satires with little or no comic relief.

To call Rand a satirist in no way diminishes her stature as a novelist; rather it enhances it.

To take just one example from Atlas Shrugged: what is the sub-plot of 20th Century Motors if not a scathing satire of Marxism and its useful idiots in the West? Read the great Anthony Sutton's account of the event that may have inspired Rand's satirical wrath.

[jts]

Among other things, Atlas Shrugged is a satire.

This is a satire. Bastiat's petition against the sun.

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

Calling satire a form of comedy is equivalent to calling animated film a form of comedy.

FF,

I'm not going to argue this except to say you exhibit no notion of how concepts emerged in literature--especially from the ancient concepts of tragedy and comedy.

Feel free to attach odd meanings to words as you deny their normal meanings. But you come off as a crackpot when you try to instruct people about things you do not know. I predict you will always have communication problems.

This is supposed to be a place for ideas, not crackpot semantics. And I'm not into doing semantics to play gotcha and little competition games like you do all the time. So affirm to your heart's content. I won't be joining you on this one. You are wrong. You say I am wrong.

Whoop-de-do.

Michael

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

When I was partway into reading Atlas the first time, I started to think that it resembled a Medieval morality play. Then I started to think that it was an allegory similar to The Pilgrim's Progress, which tale Delingpole refers to in his article. By the time I finished Atlas, I'd come to think of it as a deliberate attempt at a new mythology

Ellen,

I haven't read Pilgrim's Progress, but I agree with your comment about Rand attempting a new mythology. (Just read the introduction to the 25th anniversary edition of The Fountainhead and she practically says so.)

It's been a long time (decades) since I studied Rand's approach to character with aims at learning how she did it, but I do remember she used characters to represent abstract concepts. Ragnar, for instance, represented justice. Her villains often represent her notion of the inefficacy of evil. And so on. Each on was the embodiment of an abstract principle much like the Greek gods were.

I should pick this back up, find quotes and so forth, especially since I used used this approach my early writing and I think I want to get back to it.

(For example, I once wrote the libretto for a children's musical called Old Mrs. Hardlife and the Dream Houses and I used this approach to making the characters. One child represented creativity, another play, another sweets, another bullying, and so on--the fundamental things I determined that belong in a child's world. I never finished the music and, unfortunately, I lost the text in my meanderings in and out of addiction in Brazil. But several times I had production lined up because people loved the characters. They kept saying that. I was just too zonked out to finish the damn music. Someday I hope to recover this thing.)

But the more I study myth (starting with Joseph Campbell), the more intrigued I get.

Incidentally, Robert Bidinotto structured his novel, Hunter, right out of the pages of The Writer's Journey by Christopher Vogler, which is a modernized version of The Hero With a Thousand Faces aimed specifically for writers. I know this because Robert blogged about it. And, as he said, his main character, Dylan Hunter, is a lone wolf archetype very common in American films and novels. If pressed, I bet he will admit that you will find Jung lurking shamelessly in the shadows of his writing. But he considers himself as an Objectivist author.

Michael

[Selene]

P.S. Just returned from vacation and am still sun burned.

Where did you go?

[Francisco Ferrer]

Calling satire a form of comedy is equivalent to calling animated film a form of comedy.

FF,

I'm not going to argue this except to say you exhibit no notion of how concepts emerged in literature--especially from the ancient concepts of tragedy and comedy.

Feel free to attach odd meanings to words as you deny their normal meanings. But you come off as a crackpot when you try to instruct people about things you do not know. I predict you will always have communication problems.

This is supposed to be a place for ideas, not crackpot semantics. And I'm not into doing semantics to play gotcha and little competition games like you do all the time. So affirm to your heart's content. I won't be joining you on this one. You are wrong. You say I am wrong.

Whoop-de-do.

Michael

No one denies satire's association with comedy in Greek and Roman verse and theater. But ancient meanings do not dictate present day usage. If that were true, we would have to insist that to call Atlas a novel is to call it a short story, for the word "novel" is derived from the Italian word "novella," meaning "'short story,' originally 'new story' from Latin novella 'new things.'"

As for the accusation that I employ an odd meaning to "satire," consider the Wikipedia definition:

Satire is a genre of literature, and sometimes graphic and performing arts, in which vices, follies, abuses, and shortcomings are held up to ridicule, ideally with the intent of shaming individuals, and society itself, into improvement.

Wiki goes on to add:

Laughter is not an essential component of satire; in fact there are types of satire that are not meant to be "funny" at all. Conversely, not all humour, even on such topics as politics, religion or art is necessarily "satirical", even when it uses the satirical tools of irony, parody, and burlesque.

Thus there is nothing odd about including a work of literature with a serious tone or serious theme in the category of satire. I have previously linked to two thoughtful essays that treat Orwell's two grave novels about socialist dictatorships as satires.

So if you wish to take me to task for my "odd" way of not defining "satire" exclusively within the realm of comedy, you'll have to do the same with the "crackpot" Wiki, Encyclopedia Britannica, Encyclopedia.com, Reference.com, and many others.

[Samson Corwell]

Francisco's right. A satire doesn't need to be comedic to be a satire.

[BaalChatzaf]

Among other things, Atlas Shrugged is a satire.

This is a satire. Bastiat's petition against the sun.

Excellent example.

Very Swiftian.

Ba'al Chatzaf

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

Laughter is not an essential element of comedy. Instead, comedy amuses with humor as opposed to heavy dramatic emotions and catharsis. Laughter is often the result of comedy, but it is not essential to humor. People sometimes confuse humor with laughter. They are different animals.

Satire, whatever its other purposes, is always aimed at amusing with humor, especially with mockery. That's why it's a form of comedy.

But whatever.

This thread started as something cool happening in the culture and is now a boring game of vanity gotcha.

Atlas Shrugged is a satire. Yeah right.

Go for it.

It's no wonder mainstream people think O-Land is filled with boneheads.

At least James Delingpole is open to correcting himself and looking at concepts, not just words. I wonder if he will ever graduate to the day when being right at the expense of conceptual understanding and truth becomes his highest value.

Michael

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

When I was partway into reading Atlas the first time, I started to think that it resembled a Medieval morality play. Then I started to think that it was an allegory similar to The Pilgrim's Progress, which tale Delingpole refers to in his article. By the time I finished Atlas, I'd come to think of it as a deliberate attempt at a new mythology

Ellen,

I haven't read Pilgrim's Progress, but I agree with your comment about Rand attempting a new mythology.

. . .

Incidentally, Robert Bidinotto structured his novel, Hunter, right out of the pages of The Writer's Journey by Christopher Vogler, which is a modernized version of The Hero With a Thousand Faces aimed specifically for writers. I know this because Robert blogged about it. And, as he said, his main character, Dylan Hunter, is a lone wolf archetype very common in American films and novels. If pressed, I bet he will admit that you will find Jung lurking shamelessly in the shadows of his writing. But he considers himself as an Objectivist author.

I want to add a thought to this.

One of the archetypes Rand really, really liked came from the Judeo-Christian mythology. I remember reading where she considered Mickey Spillane's Mike Hammer as an Avenging Angel.

Robert Bidinotto's Dylan Hunter is more than a lone wolf. He fits right into the Avenging Angel archetype and says, "Move on over."

In fact, John Galt is an Avenging Angel mixed with Prometheus. He is pure myth in the best sense of the term. That's probably why his character arc is a flat line, i.e, not an arc at all.

For those who do not study writing, a character arc is a character's shift in fundamental viewpoint and/or belief about some aspect of himself and the world, and it unfolds throughout the entire story. It's often called the inner plotline or inner story.

From innocence to a more jaded adulthood is a character arc. So is having some kind of self-limiting belief in the beginning and breaking through it in the end to finally realize a longing. Or a move from bigotry to wider understanding--this one in particular is a favorite in modern romantic comedies where a male chauvinist meets his comeuppance by falling for a feisty independent woman. There's an entire body of study devoted to how and why to create character arcs. (One of the best I have come across is by Michael Hauge, but that is outside the scope here.)

In screenwriting, there is a concept from the Dramatica people called the "steadfast character." This character is the same at the beginning and end. There is no inner change or growth. John Galt is one of these. James Bond is, too. Chief honchos in mythological structures are always without a true character arc, i.e., they are steadfast characters.

Michael

[Ellen Stuttle]

One of the archetypes Rand really, really liked came from the Judeo-Christian mythology. I remember reading where she considered Mickey Spillane's Mike Hammer as an Avenging Angel.

[....]

In fact, John Galt is an Avenging Angel mixed with Prometheus. He is pure myth in the best sense of the term. That's probably why his character arc is a flat line, i.e, not an arc at all.

Also, Galt is a reverse Christ.

One of the images of Christ is that of the lamb sacrificed to cleanse the sins of the world. Galt refuses the role of sacrificial victim.

Another of the parallels is Galt on the torture rack compared to Christ on the cross.

See the next post.

[One type of character arc] is having some kind of self-limiting belief in the beginning and breaking through it in the end to finally realize a longing.

Both Dagny and Rearden.

Ellen

[Ellen Stuttle]

I've seen this painting in the original. No photo of it I've ever seen conveys the incredibleness of the visual effects.

The figures in the air are suspended in air, each layer on a separate plane that floats in front of the layer(s) behind it.

Also remarkable is the impression of the checkerboard ground receding into an enormous distance.

Ellen

Ayn Rand's favorite painting

I just received Ayn Rand by Jeff Britting. On flipping through it, I became highly intrigued when I saw a Dali painting in it. Here is the picture caption from Britting's book:

Salvador Dali, Corpus Hypercubus, oil on canvas, 29" by 23", 1954. Rand's favorite painting - she spent hours contemplating it at the Metropolitan Musuem of art. She even felt a kinship between her personal view of John Galt's defiance over his torture in Atlas Shrugged and Dali's depiction of the suffering of Jesus.

Corpus Hypercubus

by Salvador Dali

[Francisco Ferrer]

Laughter is not an essential element of comedy. Instead, comedy amuses with humor as opposed to heavy dramatic emotions and catharsis. Laughter is often the result of comedy, but it is not essential to humor. People sometimes confuse humor with laughter. They are different animals.

Satire, whatever its other purposes, is always aimed at amusing with humor, especially with mockery. That's why it's a form of comedy.

But whatever.

This thread started as something cool happening in the culture and is now a boring game of vanity gotcha.

Atlas Shrugged is a satire. Yeah right.

Go for it.

It's no wonder mainstream people think O-Land is filled with boneheads.

At least James Delingpole is open to correcting himself and looking at concepts, not just words. I wonder if he will ever graduate to the day when being right at the expense of conceptual understanding and truth becomes his highest value.

Michael

You say, "Satire, whatever its other purposes, is always aimed at amusing with humor." (My emphasis)

Yet the examples of famous satires with a predominantly non-humorous, non-comedic tone refutes this claim. Consider a few Juvenalian satires from the Wiki link I provided:

Bradbury, Ray, Fahrenheit 451.

Burgess, Anthony, A Clockwork Orange.

Burroughs, William, Naked Lunch.

Ellis, Bret Easton, American Psycho.

Golding, William, Lord of the Flies.

Huxley, Aldous, Brave New World.

Again, the point is not that Atlas Shrugged is fundamentally a satire. I never said it was. Rather, within its vast canvas it contains characters (consider just the names "Orren Boyle" and "Wesley Mouch") and incidents (20th Century Motors) that demonstrate to an appreciable extent the "the use of humor, irony, exaggeration, or ridicule to expose and criticize people's stupidity or vice."

I'm rather surprised that this is even a controversial issue. For years, Rand's serious fans have highlighted her mocking of the political and intellectual classes. Robert Mayhew has given talks on the satirical elements of The Fountainhead. To be sure they are more prevalent in The Fountainhead than in Atlas, but they can be found in both books.

To ignore the satire in Atlas is to shut oneself off from part of its genius.

[Selene]

I've seen this painting in the original. No photo of it I've ever seen conveys the incredibleness of the visual effects.

The figures in the air are suspended in air, each layer on a separate plane that floats in front of the layer(s) behind it.

Also remarkable is the impression of the checkerboard ground receding into an enormous distance.

Ellen

Ayn Rand's favorite painting

I just received Ayn Rand by Jeff Britting. On flipping through it, I became highly intrigued when I saw a Dali painting in it. Here is the picture caption from Britting's book:

Salvador Dali, Corpus Hypercubus, oil on canvas, 29" by 23", 1954. Rand's favorite painting - she spent hours contemplating it at the Metropolitan Musuem of art. She even felt a kinship between her personal view of John Galt's defiance over his torture in Atlas Shrugged and Dali's depiction of the suffering of Jesus.

Corpus Hypercubus

by Salvador Dali

Excelent Ellen. My observations also. Standing before it is an honor. Hearing your ecstatic perception makes it even better.

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

Good God!

A dystopian tragedy is not a satire. It may use satirical elements, but that does not make it a satire.

A tragedy uses comic relief at times. That does not make it a comedy.

(Why am I even bothering with this? Maybe it's because the error is so breathtakingly conceptual hash. It's like looking at a woman with two heads. You know it's right there in front of you, but you still can't believe it. So you keep looking.)

Michael

[syrakusos]

MSK: "I rarely comment on comments on Ayn Rand in the mainstream press, but this one is a delight:"

You comment on whatever you want to; and I surely do not tally them. That said, this was a nice read. Thanks.

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

One of the archetypes Rand really, really liked came from the Judeo-Christian mythology. I remember reading where she considered Mickey Spillane's Mike Hammer as an Avenging Angel.

[....]

In fact, John Galt is an Avenging Angel mixed with Prometheus. He is pure myth in the best sense of the term. That's probably why his character arc is a flat line, i.e, not an arc at all.

Also, Galt is a reverse Christ.

One of the images of Christ is that of the lamb sacrificed to cleanse the sins of the world. Galt refuses the role of sacrificial victim.

Another of the parallels is Galt on the torture rack compared to Christ on the cross.

See the next post.

[One type of character arc] is having some kind of self-limiting belief in the beginning and breaking through it in the end to finally realize a longing.

Both Dagny and Rearden.

Ellen

Ellen,

I don't go as far as to call Galt a reverse Christ. I see more parallels than differences. Gathering disciples. Saving the world. And so on. (Our mileage obviously differs. )

I'm sure you remember, I got into a kerfuffle back in the SoloHQ days when I claimed Rand's characters turned the other cheek as a tactic at times (see here). Trying to get the simple idea of strategy and tactic across to those folks after Perigo went on the warpath was my big wake-up call as to how irrational O-Land really can become. And how easy crowd control worked on O-Land people. All I could do back then was look on in awe.

And I still think that Galt telling the torture machine operator how to fix it parallels Jesus building his own cross. Granted, Galt wanted to humiliate the operator (Perigo even had him not only laughing, but laughing sadistically ) , but suppose the operator was not so stupid. Unless Rand was projecting fortune-telling into Galt's super-powers and he was 100% sure the operator would not be able to fix the machine, that was a risk. (Of course she wasn't giving Galt that super-power. ) But in that case, the machine Galt was helping to fix was still the machine the captors were using to torture him. Considering the risk, that qualifies as a big honking cheek-turn in my book.

In mythological terms, rather than reverse Christ, I consider Galt to be Christ with a Randian spin. Sure, some of the message is different, but much of it has strong parallels. Especially on individualism. Jesus's message was that the individual was precious for life in the hereafter, so it was OK to be selfish in that regard (although he didn't explicitly say that). Galt's message is that all individuals are precious (although he didn't explicitly say that), but for living their own lives on this earth. Call one supernatural individualism and the other material individualism.

I could go on and on about this. But I don't discuss it much because it pisses too many people off in O-Land and I just get tired of bickering.

I recently got the a book by John Aglialoro's stepson: The Soul of Atlas: Ayn Rand, Christianity, a Quest for Common Ground by Mark David Henderson. I haven't read it yet, so I don't know if he will talk about this stuff. Later when I read it, I will talk about it here on the forum.

The thing about metaphors and myths is that they can be interpreted in many different manners. And they all work. It just depends on your own understanding. Just look at all the different approaches to Christianity. We're starting to see this divergence with Rand's works, too.

On your point about the character arcs of Dagny and Hank, there are two other interesting arcs in secondary characters in AS: Cheryl and Wet Nurse. Both moved from innocent blindness (even with bad education in Wet Nurse's case) to full awareness--both with death at the end, too.

Michael

[Francisco Ferrer]

Good God!

A dystopian tragedy is not a satire. It may use satirical elements, but that does not make it a satire.

A tragedy uses comic relief at times. That does not make it a comedy.

(Why am I even bothering with this? Maybe it's because the error is so breathtakingly conceptual hash. It's like looking at a woman with two heads. You know it's right there in front of you, but you still can't believe it. So you keep looking.)

Michael

What is the source of your sweeping statements about what is and is not satire? Can you name one serious reference which supports your view that all satire is comedy or that no dystopian novel may be considered satirical?

If your definitions are ad hoc, fine. But don't presume to tell me how to use the word "satire" when my usage is consistent with established reference sources, which I've taken the trouble to list.

On dystopian literature see Wiki which lists three satires as examples.

See also vocabulary.com which lists the satirical Animal Farm as an example.