Creationist

[Michael Stuart Kelly]

Creationist

Michael

[moralist]

He should say "we evolved from you".

A lot of people behave as if they use monkeys are their role model.

Greg

[Brant Gaede]

Monkey see, monkey do.

[moralist]

Monkey doo doo.

[Mikee]

Attention, Humans: Chimps Are Vicious Nose-Eating Beasts

The chimp was on Xanax...

[RobinReborn]

Guys... I am pretty sure that's a gorilla, which is an ape not a monkey (it has no tail). They're incredibly strong (can punch harder than the best human boxer) but relatively passive.

To oversimplify the traits of some other primates:

Bonobos are sex crazed (but intelligent)

Chimpanzees are violent and aggressive

Not sure exactly how to describe orangutans and baboons...

[Mikee]

"Chimpanzees are violent and aggressive"

Bingo! Our closest match. We share 97% of our dna with chimps...

[Selene]

Attention, Humans: Chimps Are Vicious Nose-Eating Beasts

The chimp was on Xanax...

Did he have his hands up?

[moralist]

Guys... I am pretty sure that's a gorilla, which is an ape not a monkey (it has no tail). They're incredibly strong (can punch harder than the best human boxer) but relatively passive.

To oversimplify the traits of some other primates:

Bonobos are sex crazed (but intelligent)

Chimpanzees are violent and aggressive

Not sure exactly how to describe orangutans and baboons...

As I see it, they're all just monkeys.

Greg

[william.scherk]

Guys... I am pretty sure that's a gorilla, which is an ape not a monkey (it has no tail). They're incredibly strong (can punch harder than the best human boxer) but relatively passive.

To oversimplify the traits of some other primates:

Bonobos are sex crazed (but intelligent)

Chimpanzees are violent and aggressive

Not sure exactly how to describe orangutans and baboons...

As I see it, they're all just monkeys.

Greg, there is a difference between monkey and ape ... I don't know if you accept the fact of evolution or not, but I suspect you believe God made the kinds or species during his time of business.

The point Robin is making is correct. You mix up monkeys with apes. If you can't keep that basic distinction in mind, it is no wonder you think such strange thoughts.

We humans are more closely related to the other 'great apes' - meaning chimpanzees, gorillas and orangutans -- than we are to monkeys. Monkey and ape ancestors diverged a longer time ago than did human lineages diverge from a shared ancestor to today's chimps. The divergence between monkeys and apes occurred between twenty-five and thirty million years ago. We humans diverged from the other modern lineages some seven milllion ago.

If you want a simple heuristic to tell the difference between monkeys and apes, look for a tail. If it has no tail, it is not a monkey.

Edited July 11, 2015 by william.scherk

[Selene]

Damn looks like God had it all figured out so even us humans, chimps, gorillas and others all stayed in our rolls.

[william.scherk]

Damn looks like God had it all figured out so even us humans, chimps, gorillas and others all stayed in our rolls.

Don't believe in Damn looks like God, me. As for roll call, no idea to whom or to what you are responding.

Are you a proponent of evolution, or are you agnostic?

Edited July 11, 2015 by william.scherk

[Selene]

Damn looks like God had it all figured out so even us humans, chimps, gorillas and others all stayed in our rolls.

Don't believe in Damn looks like God, me. As for roll call, no idea to whom or to what you are responding.

Are you a proponent of evolution, or are you agnostic?

Does it matter what I think about evolution?

We either evolved, or, we did not...

There is a wonderful aphorism attributed to Confucius ...

No matter where you go...there you are...

A...

[william.scherk]

Damn looks like God had it all figured out so even us humans, chimps, gorillas and others all stayed in our rolls.

Don't believe in Damn looks like God, me. As for roll call, no idea to whom or to what you are responding.

Are you a proponent of evolution, or are you agnostic?

Does it matter what I think about evolution?

Damn looks like God had it all figured out ... is ambiguous. I assume a Randian atheism until otherwise proclaimed. Greg is pretty unequivocal: a God made the laws billions of years ago which propelled evolution to its peak 10,000 years ago when God infused human morality into the great ape offshoot Homo. That is pretty much the official Catholic view, give or take a few tens of thousands of years (the Catholic line is that 'man' was infused, and they don't specify exactly when homo sapiens or precursor homo was blessed with a soul).

So, it doesn't matter if you can grok evolution or not from a variety of perspectives. I think you can. What I was getting at was what your sentence meant. The 'role' was misspelled 'roll,' but I got the impression you think God made the roles of us humans, chimps, gorillas and kept the roles distinct over time. Which implies that the 'rolls' or 'kinds' or 'species' were made distinct by God, thus no evolution. See? Ambiguous.

So, I ask you what you think -- did God make kinds and evolution is a crock, or not. If you do not care to answer intelligibly, no problem.

Does it matter what you think about evolution? Only in the context of a discussion about evolution and the divergence of the ape line from the monkey line. If you can't figure out what you think well enough to lay it out in prose, we are all here to help.

Edited July 11, 2015 by william.scherk

[moralist]

Guys... I am pretty sure that's a gorilla, which is an ape not a monkey (it has no tail). They're incredibly strong (can punch harder than the best human boxer) but relatively passive.

To oversimplify the traits of some other primates:

Bonobos are sex crazed (but intelligent)

Chimpanzees are violent and aggressive

Not sure exactly how to describe orangutans and baboons...

As I see it, they're all just monkeys.

Greg, there is a difference between monkey and ape

They're all just monkeys compared to humans.

Greg

[Selene]

Damn looks like God had it all figured out so even us humans, chimps, gorillas and others all stayed in our rolls.

Don't believe in Damn looks like God, me. As for roll call, no idea to whom or to what you are responding.

Are you a proponent of evolution, or are you agnostic?

Does it matter what I think about evolution?

Damn looks like God had it all figured out ... is ambiguous. I assume a Randian atheism until otherwise proclaimed. Greg is pretty unequivocal: God made the laws which propelled evolution to its peak 10,000 years ago when God infused human morality into the great ape offshoot Homo.

Frankly, I do not think that is Greg's position at all.

However, you consistently muse, infer and create positions in people, like myself, therefore, I will choose when I answer questions about my position when I choose to.

Secondly, it can't be taunted out of me, nor many others here.

A...

[moralist]

I got the impression you think God made the roles of us humans, chimps, gorillas and kept the roles distinct over time.

They used to be distinct roles for monkeys and humans... however that distinction has become blurred.

Greg

[moralist]

Frankly, I do not think that is Greg's position at all.

Thanks, Adam.

You're right.

It isn't.

Greg

[william.scherk]

Damn looks like God had it all figured out ... is ambiguous. I assume a Randian atheism until otherwise proclaimed. Greg is pretty unequivocal: God made the laws which propelled evolution to its peak 10,000 years ago when God infused human morality into the great ape offshoot Homo.

Frankly, I do not think that is Greg's position at all.

So what? I have researched what he has said on the subject here at OL. God made the laws. The laws propelled evolution. Human evolution reached its peak with humans. Humans acquired a perfected morality ten thousand years ago. We are no longer mere humanoids like the preceding homo species.

However, you consistently muse, infer and create positions in people, like myself, therefore, I will choose when I answer questions about my position when I choose to.

Well, how sad for all the poor mused-on people and their problems with forum life. What you seem to ignore here is that when ambiguous statements and dances-of-the-veils obscure what one thinks, then that leaves the door wide open to speculation, inferences, or musing as you call it.

I am curious about where people stand on issues. You appeared to put forth an opinion, but it was murky. Thus I asked a few questions, which apparently made you feel attacked or put on the spot.

Secondly, it can't be taunted out of me, nor many others here.

Oh, for heaven's sake. This is OL, a forum where people have vigorous debates. If you can't be taunted or mused to answer about your beliefs and thinking, like I said, that is fine. You take a bow and go lay down for a nap, or get ready for your next expression of an opinion, if you are up for it later on.

It is not like I have demanded you open a vein and bleed. I meant to show that Greg has been relatively clear about his beliefs, and invite you to do something similar. If you don't care to share your beliefs further, then don't.

Frankly, I do not think that is Greg's position at all.

Thanks, Adam.

You're right.

It isn't.

If you care to update or clarify your statements from an earlier time, I am all for it, Greg. If I have made a mistake, I am happy to correct it.

Here is what I wrote, simplifying what you have already told us: "Greg is pretty unequivocal: God made the laws which propelled evolution to its peak 10,000 years ago when God infused human morality into the great ape offshoot Homo."

Please tell us how that was wrong, and how your actual beliefs today differ from what you are already on record with. I have redlined and bolded what caught my eye back then, just a year or so ago. It was your own remarks that led me to my summary of your openness on the issues.

Let me see if I get this right. Of the four choices given in the survey, Greg would answer that God created human beings pretty much in their present form at one time within the last 10,000 years or so

Yes... and just to clarify the most important... in their present morally accountable form.

In my opinion, morally accountable human beings originated within 10,000 years ago, and before them there were only amoral humanoid animals.

Of course, Greg has not said anything in particular about the age of the universe, the age of the earth, and not a word yet on the reality of evolution.

I'm fine with 4.5 billion years for the earth , and 15 bil or whatever for the universe. Neither has any bearing on human moral accountability.

and not a word yet on the reality of evolution.

I'm just fine with evolution, too. as it is completely subject to the intelligent design of a whole host of exquisitely logical well-ordered physical and biological laws.. without which evolution would not be possible.

So, I added those up and got, roughly: "I'm fine with 4.5 billion years for the earth, and 15 bil or whatever for the universe. I'm just fine with evolution, too... God created morally accountable human beings pretty much in their present form at one time within the last 10,000 years or so. efore them there were only amoral humanoid animals."

As I understand Greg's views stated earlier, evolution has proceeded according to God's laws since the first days of the universe. Among those laws operate evolution, which 'peaked' for man ten thousand years or so ago. Humankind evolved to that point as amoral humanoid animal -- the greatest of the great apes, then God 'infused' morality into them and made them accountable to Him.

The main difference between my summation above would be quibbles over whether Greg believes a new moral hominin was inserted into the evolutionary record or was mere evolved amoral humanoid until the 'morality' of a fully human soul was made/inserted/added/infused by an act of God.

Anyhow, Adam, bottom line is that Greg is happy to explain his views, and so am I, taunted or not. It might make you look overly sensitive to slights if you don't spell out how your views inform your points.

On the evolution of moral humans, I expect your views diverge from Greg's and are much closer to the agnosticism of Ayn Rand. I think you are at most agnostic with regard to Gods, but do not necessarily see a divine act that infused a fully human morality into the Homo line, as with Catholic dogma. Rand makes the new species distinction a little bit like Greg's, when humankind was not merely sapient, but reasoning, and not merely reasoning, but reasoning with the full power and capacity of the human. Somewhere some humanoids did not gain the 'gift' of reason. They may still be among us. Throwbacks and missing links.

All interesting stuff, and as far as I can tell, everyone got cake.

I am sorry you feel taunted to speak your views on evolution. I would wish you happily and forthrightly spoke your mind.

[Brant Gaede]

Guys... I am pretty sure that's a gorilla, which is an ape not a monkey (it has no tail). They're incredibly strong (can punch harder than the best human boxer) but relatively passive.

To oversimplify the traits of some other primates:

Bonobos are sex crazed (but intelligent)

Chimpanzees are violent and aggressive

Not sure exactly how to describe orangutans and baboons...

As I see it, they're all just monkeys.

Greg

That's how they see you.

Coincidence?

--Brant

[Selene]

Well, how sad for all the poor mused-on people and their problems with forum life. What you seem to ignore here is that when ambiguous statements and dances-of-the-veils obscure what one thinks, then that leaves the door wide open to speculation, inferences, or musing as you call it.

I am curious about where people stand on issues. You appeared to put forth an opinion, but it was murky. Thus I asked a few questions, which apparently made you feel attacked or put on the spot.

To some who prefer to import their perception of what position silence means, they are free to do that.

Additionally, if I have already expressed an opinion of an issue on OL during my time here, I might care not to repeat it over and over and over again.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

William. Please. I do not feel attacked at all by your Nerf arrows.

I do not take argument or debate personally. I know I have made this point clearly, and specifically to you, quite recently. However, you apparently chose to raise it again.

A...

[moralist]

Guys... I am pretty sure that's a gorilla, which is an ape not a monkey (it has no tail). They're incredibly strong (can punch harder than the best human boxer) but relatively passive.

To oversimplify the traits of some other primates:

Bonobos are sex crazed (but intelligent)

Chimpanzees are violent and aggressive

Not sure exactly how to describe orangutans and baboons...

As I see it, they're all just monkeys.

Greg

That's how they see you.

Coincidence?

--Brant

Nope.

They only see other monkeys because they're not capable of seeing anything else.

Greg

[moralist]

So what? I have researched what he has said on the subject here at OL.

Then you should already know my view that the first humans were uniquely created by God in His own image... and "God's image" means morally accountable for our freely chosen actions.

The rest of the animal kingdom is amoral as they cannot make moral choices and are solely creatures of instinct and environment.

Greg

[Brant Gaede]

So what? I have researched what he has said on the subject here at OL.

Then you should already know my view that the first humans were uniquely created by God in His own image... and "God's image" means morally accountable for our freely chosen actions.

The rest of the animal kingdom is amoral as they cannot make moral choices and are solely creatures of instinct and environment.

Greg

Not quite. Once I went hiking with my buddy in Montana when we were chased by a Grizzly Bear. Since my buddy could run faster than me, I thought I was a goner. Imagine my surprise when the bear tore right by me and chased my buddy down--and ate him. Obviously, choice was involved. I was skinny and my buddy heavier. Then another bear arrived and joined in the feast, but first the bears gave each other high fives.

--Brant

I also have some shark stories, like the time my buddy and I . . .

[moralist]

So what? I have researched what he has said on the subject here at OL.

Then you should already know my view that the first humans were uniquely created by God in His own image... and "God's image" means morally accountable for our freely chosen actions.

The rest of the animal kingdom is amoral as they cannot make moral choices and are solely creatures of instinct and environment.

Greg

Not quite.

Their "choices" are solely a combination of instinct and environmental stimulii. There is no 'good bear" or "bad bear".

Greg