Osama bin Laden Killed


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Steve, I take it you're not dancing and don't care for a drink. Suit yourself.

I don't like these seemingly endless wars either, but I do like to see evil lose. Score one for the USA.

Cheers!

Kat

Kat,

I only pulled up your post to make a general remark.

I agree with every statement in this thread, celebratory, or condemnatory - and without trying to play peacemaker, I think you all do as well.

There is the euphoria of released tension, and the mourning of loss of liberty and life. As a non-American I can't presume to know the depths of emotion and outrage from 9/11, through the Patriot Act, to massive foreign intervention, but by God, I believe I've come close!

Some of you are looking at the big picture, and others are enjoying the moment, but I see no distinction or divergence in these opinions.

Tony

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"Can you imagine what's on Osama bin Laden's hard drive?"

Nasty computer viruses? Kiddie porn? The director's cut of Brüno?

Some of you are looking at the big picture, and others are enjoying the moment, but I see no distinction or divergence in these opinions.

It’s all about having healthy dopamine receptors.

http://reason.com/blog/2011/05/02/dopamine-and-the-death-of-bin

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ND:

Interesting about the dopamine receptors.

My question is...

What triggers them? In other words, if you do not get a positive feed back of pleasure from hearing of the big "O's" departure from life, you have "unhealthy receptors?"

Adam

Edited by Selene
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Adam,

You can alter the behavior of these receptors through neuroplasticity.

One of the downsides of allowing an emotion like intense hatred to flow excessively through your mind is that this physically deforms your normal brain processes. The malignant neural pathways you put there by choice rob the functions of your normal healthy ones.

People who deeply hate something unrelated to Islamist terrorism literally have their dopamine processes rewired. So they don't relate to the general euphoria now happening.

There's a lot of fascinating neuroscience literature on this.

You can go the other way, too. Most of the studies in the positive direction I have read deal with practices like meditation. But some very interesting things are coming out about the flow states of productive achievers and how to enhance them. (The guy who started that flow stuff has an almost unpronounceable last name: Mihaly Csikszentmihalyi.)

Michael

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Another comment on the neuroscience part: One of the functions of the brain is to make mental patterns that correspond to what we perceive.

This process is so automatic and deep that when we get interrupted or incomplete patterns, the brain is thrown into confusion and/or mild distress. Completing the pattern causes mild euphoria.

Nailing Osama bin Laden completed a pattern in the minds of most Americans that had remained uncompleted for over a decade.

This is one more component in the euphoria (in addition to things like relief, affirmation of effectiveness, etc.).

This process is often called closure.

Michael

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When Obama was running for election, I made the comment that he was essentially not a bad man, but basically had good intentions for this country in his heart. I took a lot of flack for that back then.

Well, you can see some of this good side in the video below.

<iframe width="560" height="349" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/QPlJKKcBVUo?rel=0" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

I still want Obama out of office and I still think he is helping to wreck this country, but I don't believe for a minute that this is moved by malice. I think his intentions are good.

So, for a moment, I'm going to let my animosity toward him relax. Just for a moment. In that spirit, I'm glad that even a President as far left as Obama is can be a competent Commander-in-Chief against sworn American enemies--and that he sees himself as belonging to the same American family as his political enemies.

I'm actually proud of him for his part in leading the effort to get bin Laden.

Michael

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Another comment on the neuroscience part: One of the functions of the brain is to make mental patterns that correspond to what we perceive.

This process is so automatic and deep that when we get interrupted or incomplete patterns, the brain is thrown into confusion and/or mild distress. Completing the pattern causes mild euphoria.

Nailing Osama bin Laden completed a pattern in the minds of most Americans that had remained uncompleted for over a decade.

This is one more component in the euphoria (in addition to things like relief, affirmation of effectiveness, etc.).

This process is often called closure.

Michael

MSK: sorry if I have mentioned this before, but you and others interested in this subject might want to check out a program called Holysync. This is billed as the lazy man's meditation, and involves the same ideas inherent in what you have addressed in recommending Super Yoga,. The basic idea is right brain/left brain synchronization, and the creation of intentional neural pathways. Like most leaders in this area, the dude who invented this is a tad nutty, but I like the program a lot [although I have fallen off because an hour a day just is too hard to come by, it seems.]

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Martin: sorry if calling OBL an asshole offended you. Maybe when you consider what used to be the World Trade Center your umbrage will die down a bit.

You really ought to learn to read more carefully. Nowhere did I say or imply that I was offended by you calling OBL an asshole. In fact, I happen to agree with you that OBL is an asshole and, presumably, a mass murderer. My point was that OBL was not responsible for the thousands of deaths and injuries suffered by American soldiers in the wars that followed 9/11, as you stated. It was not OBL who ordered the invasion of Iraq with over a hundred thousand soldiers. It was not OBL who ordered the invasion of Afghanistan, a war that was allegedly fought to kill OBL but that has turned into the longest war ever fought by the U.S., with no end in sight. OBL was responsible for the death of about 3,000 Americans. George W. Bush was responsible for the death of more American soldiers than that, not to mention at least 100,000 Iraqis who have died in the war. OBL is now dead. George W. Bush lives on in luxury, with a lifetime of taxpayer provided secret service protection. OBL has received the ultimate justice for his crimes. George W. Bush will never have to face justice for his crimes.

Martin

Martin: usually when someone uses scare quotes around a pejorative, as you did when referring to OBL above, this is meant to be a form of disagreement, not agreement. If you read my quote above, you will see that I said "some died because of this asshole," not your formulation of my remarks above. No big deal. Not sure what George Bush's luxury pad in Waco has to do with anything, or why we wouldn't him to have secret service protection (he does have a lot of secrets we wouldn't extracted from him by kidnappers, you know), but I get the point, primarily because it has been made so many times before.

Edited by PDS
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David (PDS),

That looks interesting. I have a lot of brain entrainment stuff, but one more doesn't hurt. I'll probably look into it.

(This should actually go on another thread, since we are discussing how to use and explore our brains, but that is useless to the topic. Osama bin Laden's brains were blown out of his skull. How's that for dark humor?)

Michael

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David (PDS),

That looks interesting. I have a lot of brain entrainment stuff, but one more doesn't hurt. I'll probably look into it.

(This should actually go on another thread, since we are discussing how to use and explore our brains, but that is useless to the topic. Osama bin Laden's brains were blown out of his skull. How's that for dark humor?)

Michael

MSK: Not to quibble, but I think only a portion of his brains were blown out. The rest is now an appetizer for a fair-sized shark.

Not even Holysync can help OBL now. :lol:

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David (PDS),

That looks interesting. I have a lot of brain entrainment stuff, but one more doesn't hurt. I'll probably look into it.

(This should actually go on another thread, since we are discussing how to use and explore our brains, but that is useless to the topic. Osama bin Laden's brains were blown out of his skull. How's that for dark humor?)

Michael

MSK: Not to quibble, but I think only a portion of his brains were blown out. The rest is now an appetizer for a fair-sized shark.

Not even Holysync can help OBL now. :lol:

Sheik Osama now sleeps with the fish.

Ba'al Chatzaf

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.

Michael, thank you for #56.

Yesterday, we hung the big American flag, which I had inherited from my brother, from a good branch on one of our trees by the road. Flags went up all around our neighborhood. In the evening, I played again How High the Moon.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Depend on it.

YES!

Edited by Stephen Boydstun
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I have no objection to people celebrating bin Laden's death -- although some of the college kids, too young to have witnessed the horror of 9/11 as

it was happening, made me feel uncomfortably as if pretty cheerleaders and a marching band soon would appear -- but as I listened to the news last night and today, I have not felt like celebrating. i am glad that bin Laden is dead; he was a monster who was polluting the earth with his presence. And I have only admiration for the courage and consummate efficiency of the Navy Seals who did the job.

But I have been feeling enormous sadness -- not because a cockroach has been stamped on and destroyed, but because it had ever lived, because such evil had breathed the air I breathe and felt the warmth of the same sun. I kept remembering 9/11, the end of whatever innocence Americans had still possessed. I kept remembering, especially, what has remained with me ever since as the scene that captures the essence of that terrible day: individuals and couples holding hands, leaping from their windows in the burning towers.

The only real justice the 3,000 victims of 9/11 could receive would be to have their lives restored to them. And that no one can give them.

Barbara

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A random thought to throw out there: the "war on terror" always had the problem that there could never be a way to declare victory. To start undoing the Patriot Act and even to end the foreign wars there would need to be a decisive event, like the surrender of Japan ending WWII. Bin Laden’s death is about as close as we’re going to get to such an event. So, the point that nothing will change as a result of his death , well, we shall see. I think the event needs to be capitalized on, and unplanned public celebrations are part of making that happen.

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Agreed:

Good time to declare victory and bring the troops home from Afghanistan.

RAMclr-050311-osama-ibd.jpg.cms-thumb-460x322.jpeg

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Agreed:

Good time to declare victory and bring the troops home from Afghanistan.

Soon people being groped by TSA at the airports should start saying “cut this crap out, Bin Laden’s dead”. I don’t know about pulling out of Afghanistan or Iraq, in terms of timelines etc. I like the sound of it, of course.

Nice drawing concept, though I wish the rodent in the talons was a bit clearer, the color isn’t distinct compared to the eagle’s feathers. Plus I wouldn’t mind some drops of blood, maybe coming out of the eye.

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Agreed:

Good time to declare victory and bring the troops home from Afghanistan.

Soon people being groped by TSA at the airports should start saying "cut this crap out, Bin Laden's dead". I don't know about pulling out of Afghanistan or Iraq, in terms of timelines etc. I like the sound of it, of course.

Nice drawing concept, though I wish the rodent in the talons was a bit clearer, the color isn't distinct compared to the eagle's feathers. Plus I wouldn't mind some drops of blood, maybe coming out of the eye.

Bin Laden's dead but the Jihadis are Out There waiting to do evil to us on our own ground. Bin Laden showed them the way. Bin Laden is dead but the Way still beckons these death lovers.

The world will not be safe as long as there is one Jihadi Out There.

Ba'al Chatzaf

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I have no objection to people celebrating bin Laden's death -- although some of the college kids, too young to have witnessed the horror of 9/11 as

it was happening, made me feel uncomfortably as if pretty cheerleaders and a marching band soon would appear -- but as I listened to the news last night and today, I have not felt like celebrating. i am glad that bin Laden is dead; he was a monster who was polluting the earth with his presence. And I have only admiration for the courage and consummate efficiency of the Navy Seals who did the job.

But I have been feeling enormous sadness -- not because a cockroach has been stamped on and destroyed, but because it had ever lived, because such evil had breathed the air I breathe and felt the warmth of the same sun. I kept remembering 9/11, the end of whatever innocence Americans had still possessed. I kept remembering, especially, what has remained with me ever since as the scene that captures the essence of that terrible day: individuals and couples holding hands, leaping from their windows in the burning towers.

The only real justice the 3,000 victims of 9/11 could receive would be to have their lives restored to them. And that no one can give them.

Barbara

This pretty well sums up my feelings, but there are different kinds of innocence. I think the innocence you are talking about here is the innocence fostered and made possible by both ignorance and a giant country buffered by the two major oceans. Aside from the lives lost on 9/11 and consequent to that, that ignorance is purblind superficiality by a populace that refuses to see and understand the world they are living in absent the needed critical thinking and education. How many Americans can make a coherent statement about Marines killing Filipinos over a hundred years ago in a pacification campaign that washed over high multiples of 10,000 murdered people? The expansionist imperialistic impulse that has informed Americans and America since the beginning pushed through to the Pacific Ocean and kept on going to these very days. It is not the imperialism of ancient Rome or the British Empire or European colonialism, it is the imperialism of power and self-justifying pat-ourselves-on-the-back-for-we-are-the-good-guys making-the-world-a-better-place. The push-back on American power has just begun as the interior weakens. That's all it ever has been--power relationships. Power pushes against power until it has no power to push further, then countervailing power creates temporary stasis between countries or regions and the readjustments begin.

--Brant

it's about freedom when we talk about freedom and individual rights knowing what we are talking about

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Bin Laden's dead but the Jihadis are Out There waiting to do evil to us on our own ground. Bin Laden showed them the way. Bin Laden is dead but the Way still beckons these death lovers.

The world will not be safe as long as there is one Jihadi Out There.

Ba'al Chatzaf

The world will never be "safe" for absolute safety is not a possible way of the world. Relative safety is another matter.

--Brant

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Agreed:

Good time to declare victory and bring the troops home from Afghanistan.

RAMclr-050311-osama-ibd.jpg.cms-thumb-460x322.jpeg

Maybe so, but what's going to happen is U.S. involvement in a Pakistan-India war to rid Pakistan of its nukes and dismember that country into its tribal pieces.

--Brant

then there's the Persian Gulf and Iran----

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To America killing Bin Laden means knowing without a doubt that it's at war with Pakistan's hiden government that harbored him. He was living next to its military academy and they didn't know it?--hell, they built the compound.

--Brant

and the war goes on

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This pretty well sums up my feelings, but there are different kinds of innocence. I think the innocence you are talking about here is the innocence fostered and made possible by both ignorance and a giant country buffered by the two

Hell, I value innocence. A rationally informed innocence.

I'm think I'll make it my motto: innocence, with eyes wide open.

Tony

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The world will not be safe as long as there is one Jihadi Out There.

Meaning you approve of the full body imaging and groping by TSA agents at US airports? And favor permanent US military occupation of Afghanistan and Iraq? Or, as Randzapper claims, you believe all Muslims should be hunted down and killed?

http://randzapper.blogspot.com/2007/05/bob-kolker-come-on-down.html

Since there is no practical way of separating the bad ones from the good ones, we should kill them all.

I lable [sic] my Modest Proposal ethnocide.

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The world will not be safe as long as there is one Jihadi Out There.

Meaning you approve of the full body imaging and groping by TSA agents at US airports? And favor permanent US military occupation of Afghanistan and Iraq? Or, as Randzapper claims, you believe all Muslims should be hunted down and killed?

http://randzapper.bl...me-on-down.html

Since there is no practical way of separating the bad ones from the good ones, we should kill them all.

I lable [sic] my Modest Proposal ethnocide.

If Bob had a cheerleader here for his nonsense--if there were one than one Bob--I'd be outta here. It's simply amazing how such an intelligent man can be so stupid when he leaves his farm to inform others how much better the world would be if they would just practice and advocate genocide against over a billion people. This is a wall of stupidity made of unthinking granite. Nothing to do with ideas. Nothing to do with engaging others. Nothing to do with any intellectual give and take. If it had anything to do with any of these it would be so intolerable I could not stand Objectivist Living.

--Brant

Edited by Brant Gaede
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Agreed:

Good time to declare victory and bring the troops home from Afghanistan.

Soon people being groped by TSA at the airports should start saying "cut this crap out, Bin Laden's dead". I don't know about pulling out of Afghanistan or Iraq, in terms of timelines etc. I like the sound of it, of course.

Nice drawing concept, though I wish the rodent in the talons was a bit clearer, the color isn't distinct compared to the eagle's feathers. Plus I wouldn't mind some drops of blood, maybe coming out of the eye.

Bin Laden's dead but the Jihadis are Out There waiting to do evil to us on our own ground. Bin Laden showed them the way. Bin Laden is dead but the Way still beckons these death lovers.

The world will not be safe as long as there is one Jihadi Out There.

Ba'al Chatzaf

You're right, Ba'al. We'll never be safe as long as there's a single Jihadi Out There. So the obvious solution is to make up a list of every single Jihadi in the entire world. Then we send assasination squads out all over the entire globe, murdering each Jihadi one by one, until there are no Jihadis left. Then at last we will be able to breathe easily. We will be safe!

Oh, wait. I've thought about this scenario and just figured out that there's a slight flaw. What if our list of Jihadis is incomplete? What if we end up missing some, so that even after our assasination squads have done their work, there are still some surviving Jihadis left, meaning that we will still not be safe. What if some of the Jihadis slip through the cracks? We would feel really stupid if, after all of the diligent work of our assasination squads, we still had to continue living in mortal terror.

So, I've come up with a slightly revised plan. This time, we make up a list of every country in the entire world that we believe has any Jihadis living there. Then, we nuke every one of these countries, killing every man, woman, child, dog, and cat in that country (you never know, there might just be some canine and feline Jihadis. We can't take any chances). This way, we don't have to worry about any Jihadis slipping through the cracks. Problem solved. We will be safe!

Oh, wait. I just thought of something. What if we suspect that some Jihadis are actually living in the United States? What are we going to do then? We don't want to nuke ourselves. Do we?

Martin

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