Objectivism and Stoicism


PDS

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I would like to start a discussion of this topic.

I have been reading a number of Stoic classics of late, and even labored through Wolfe's A Man in Full, which is enough to make anybody indifferent about death, or at least willing to contemplate suicide. :laugh:

I suspect some of OL's posters would find a lot to agree with when it comes to Stoicism. Any thoughts?

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I studied the stoics at university (have forgotten most) and my impression is of a human sublimity that does not become zen (not that I studied that at all).

The influence of stoicism on English literature and upper-class culture was strong. "If" by Kipling was I believe read at Rand's funeral. |She never achieved all the characteristics RK prescribed for his son, especially the part about making allowances for your doubters)

"Excelsior" exemplifies it in a Romantic way. And my particular like, Housman, explored stoicism in a bitter, brilliant way imo.

And the inarticulate products of the traditional classical education died stoically in WWI, two thousand years after Horatius at the Bridge.

I will be interested in seeing commentary by those who have compared the philosophies.

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PS you could certainly call John Galt, the ultimate Rand ideal, stoical in the popular sense. He apparently abstained from sex for most of his adulthood and serenely withstood torture, all in support of his highest values.

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PS you could certainly call John Galt, the ultimate Rand ideal, stoical in the popular sense. He apparently abstained from sex for most of his adulthood and serenely withstood torture, all in support of his highest values.

Keep in mind that true Stoics are not necessarily stoic, in the sense that the term is used nowadays.

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I do, that is why I said "popular". Intend to refresh my knowledge on this, and likely revel in some more AEH who was a fine classicist.

I have been planning to read some AEH independent of your comments about his Stoic connection.

Do you have a recommendation for a first jump in that pool?

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Pity was rejected as virtuous by the Stoics. Nietzsche would have known that.

Rand knew Nietzsche’s view (contrary Schopenhauer especially) on pity.

Search the word pity here. On Mac use: Command F.

Pity and Mercy: Nietzsche’s Stoicism

Martha Nussbaum

Interesting article, Stephen. Thanks for the citation.

Rand likely knew Nietzsche's view on pity, but I wonder if she knew the Stoic roots of that view, per the article. I don't recall having seen anything written by Rand that addresses (even implicitly) the Stoic view.

In any event, I am now even more fascinated by the Stoics, in light of the Nietzschean connection.

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/I was just going to ask that same question, did Rand ever mention the Stoics.

Since my tabula on this has been pretty much erasaed, I have exhumed an ancient copy of Arrian/Epictetus ( example of the Virtue of Hoarding!) and googled around. The very first paragraph of Wiki on Stoicism had me thinking, wait a minute, is this Objectivist or what?

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I don't recall, off-hand, any direct reference by Rand to the Stoics.

They are mentioned in Peikoff's history of philosophy lectures, Thales to Hume.

A number of commentators have mentioned the half-way Stoicism of Rand's heroes, including Howard Roark and John Galt. Half-way, because they suppress their negative emotions but not their positive emotions.

Robert Campbell

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Not in especial, he wrote relatively little poetry so jump in anywhere and the pool will be clear and cool.

Some of his later poems were especially good translations of Greek or Latin ones. This is from memory but I think it is of that period:

"Now to her lap the incestuous earth

The son she bore has ta'en

And other sons she brings to birth,

But not my friend again."

When the bells justle in the tower

"The hollow night amid

\then on my tongue the taste is sour

Of all I ever did."

AEH was an atheist, by the way. He described himself as a "High Church Atheist", which justled my personal bell.

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Positively absolutely my last appearance. Sorry PDS but you did ask. I think this expresses carpe diem well:

I smile upon my friend today

His troubles soon are over

|I hearken to my lover's say

And happy is the lover.

Tis late to hearken, late to smile

But better late than never.

I shall have lived a little while

Before I die for ever.

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Positively absolutely my last appearance. Sorry PDS but you did ask. I think this expresses carpe diem well:

I smile upon my friend today

His troubles soon are over

|I hearken to my lover's say

And happy is the lover.

Tis late to hearken, late to smile

But better late than never.

I shall have lived a little while

Before I die for ever.

Very Stoic indeed. Thanks!

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From the Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy:

Stoicism was one of the new philosophical movements of the Hellenistic period. The name derives from the porch (stoa poikilê) in the Agora at Athens decorated with mural paintings, where the members of the school congregated, and their lectures were held. Unlike ‘epicurean,’ the sense of the English adjective ‘stoical’ is not utterly misleading with regard to its philosophical origins. The Stoics did, in fact, hold that emotions like fear or envy (or impassioned sexual attachments, or passionate love of anything whatsoever) either were, or arose from, false judgements and that the sage—a person who had attained moral and intellectual perfection—would not undergo them.

Continuing...

It does not, however, hint at the even more radical ethical views which the Stoics defended, e.g. that only the sage is free while all others are slaves, or that all those who are morally vicious are equally so. Though it seems clear that some Stoics took a kind of perverse joy in advocating views which seem so at odds with common sense, they did not do so simply to shock. Stoic ethics achieves a certain plausibility within the context of their physical theory and psychology, and within the framework of Greek ethical theory as that was handed down to them from Plato and Aristotle. It seems that they were well aware of the mutually interdependent nature of their philosophical views, likening philosophy itself to a living animal in which logic is bones and sinews; ethics and physics, the flesh and the soul respectively (another version reverses this assignment, making ethics the soul). Their views in logic and physics are no less distinctive and interesting than those in ethics itself.

Here is the link to a lengthy analysis of Stoicism:

http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/stoicism/

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In all the times that I have looked items up in the Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy, I never searched for "Objectivism!"

Here is the link for it:

http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/ayn-rand/

In essays and lectures, Rand developed her conception of metaphysical realism, rationality, ethical egoism (rational self-interest), individual rights, laissez-faire capitalism, and art, and applied her philosophy to social issues. The libertarian political movement, though largely disowned by Rand, drew—and draws—great inspiration from her moral defense of the minimal state, that is, the state whose only raison d'être is protection of individual rights. For all her popularity, however, only a few professional philosophers have taken her work seriously. As a result, most of the serious philosophical work on Rand has appeared in non-academic, non-peer-reviewed, journals, or in books, and the bibliography reflects this fact. We discuss the main reasons for her rejection by most professional philosophers in the next section. Our discussion of Rand's philosophical views, especially her moral-political views, draws not only from her non-fiction, but also her fiction, since her views cannot be accurately interpreted or evaluated without doing so.

The bibliography is also valuable with several articles available on line.

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Interesting how a philosophical overview such as the Stanford Encyclopedia can let the air of a philosophy's tires.

Here are a few of the more interesting take-aways I have from my readings on Stoicism:

1. The high value placed on Eudaimonia, or human flourishing--see above, and see Rand's view of man as an end in himself.

2. The zero value placed on the notion of collective guilt--see everything Rand has ever written....

3. The importance of choosing one's values and philosophy rather than living by "hodge-podge", ala Rand's Philosophy, Who Needs It?

4. The significance of not letting external things affect one's happiness, ala Roark in The Fountainhead.

5. The implicit notion of a conversion experience upon adopting the philosophy--compare Marcus Aurelius and every Orange-haired Randroid you've ever met...

6. A healthy disdain for pity regarding others, ala Stephen's article cited above.

These are just a few parallels I have seen.

Ominous? No. Interesting? I think so.

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I would like to start a discussion of this topic.

I have been reading a number of Stoic classics of late, and even labored through Wolfe's A Man in Full, which is enough to make anybody indifferent about death, or at least willing to contemplate suicide. :laugh:

I suspect some of OL's posters would find a lot to agree with when it comes to Stoicism. Any thoughts?

But a major characteristic of Rand was her passion. She was passionate about her ideals, passionate in her persoal relationships. Her own passion is also reflected in her fictional heroes and heroines - they too are very passionate.

As for the stoic attitude toward passion: isn't it very different from Ayn Rand's philosophy?

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XRay, I am really seriously interested in this heretofore unknown to me conjunction of philosophy. But following your comment I cannot forbear to remind you, that the Stoics were all men.

Tag onto this, welldone \PDS for finishing A Man in Full. Could you give us a mini-review? It sounds like a title that would have interested Rand who required men to be fuller than the usual.

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Speaking of what is a man, I just watched Bridge on the River Kwai for only the second time, although I had the impression I had seen it many times over. It is that kind of movie I guess. It came out in 1957, I know Ayn Rand was pretty busy that year but I wonder if she saw it and what she thought of it.

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i thought the best line in the movie was at the end: "Madness! Madness!"

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Masterpiece. Did you know that Sessue Hayakawa, who comes across as 50ish tops onscreen here, was 68 when he made that movie? What an actor.

I loved his line: "I hate the British!"

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