blackhorse

Ayn Rand's almost cannabis moment with Ayn Rand

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Very interesting interview. At 5:45 NB talks about an almost cannabis moment with Ayn Rand. I rather think if she would have tried it she would have enjoyed it and found it great mental relaxation and recreation.

http://theconservati...s-with-ayn.html

Cough! Cough!

--Brant

she got the chronic?

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Very interesting interview. At 5:45 NB talks about an almost cannabis moment with Ayn Rand. I rather think if she would have tried it she would have enjoyed it and found it great mental relaxation and recreation.

http://theconservativepothead.blogspot.com/2009/11/nathaniel-branden-on-my-years-with-ayn.html

Interesting. Listened only to the area though where the pot reference was made but will run through the entirety of it soon. Being an ex drug user myself of many many different drugs unfortunately; one being a once heavy pot smoker when I was younger, I doubt very seriously she would have enjoyed it. I once enjoyed it. But at that time and going through everything that I was going through, I realized that I absolutely hated it; greatly interfered with my ability to think. Every time my mind or that inner voice would ask myself a question such as why am I doing this; why am I here; what is it that I am doing, and so forth, I couldn't stay concentrated and focussed long enough to answer the questions and to figure it out; to integrate the two; ie, identification and the cause and effect of it; what am I doing and why; what do I want and why? etc., etc. Oh, god, I absolutely hated how much it interfered with it.

The more that I did this I actually found that I enjoyed using my mind and thinking in this manner and definitely got more of a rush and high from it than any drug I had ever used and I did a lot of drugs aside from just pot. Way too much experience in this arena unfortunately. Once I stopped all the drug use, including drinking, I tried smoking pot again and found that I still absolutely hated it; one huge factor is it interfered greatly with my ability to think and haven't touched the shit since. But I do have to say I do drink on the rare occasion depending on where I am or who I am with but other than that been sober from all other drugs for many many years and wouldn't want it any other way and greatly enjoy being sober.

At any rate, thanks for posting the link, Blackhorse, interesting indeed. I do have to chuckle at Brant's chronic remark though.....LOL

Angie

Edited by CNA
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A very worthwhile listen, thanks blackhorse.

I've never been certain about that "you end up with the face you deserve" truism, but Nathaniel is a case in point.

To look so good and so sharp at close on 80 - a lady friend of mine says he's "very hot!"- speaks of deep inner strength and calmness I reckon, and no unresolved regrets.

Hearing his voice reminded me of the time I phoned him (November 2008) taking advantage of the offer of 10 free minutes of consultation promoted on his website.

Most of the conversation went past in a blur, and he sounded weary (although very focused),but I distinctly recall his answer to my despairing view of the depths of general irrationality I came across; he said, yes, one can be excused for thinking that the whole world has become insane right now.

Quite a guy.

Tony

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I can see it now. "Atlas Toked: Dude, Where's My Railroad?" And for sure, you could count on what they'd be growing in the Gulch--the margins would be just too good to pass up.

Edited by Rich Engle
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In low doses cannabis can do several things that I think have a positive effect (bearing in mind context); relaxation, the senses are amplified, time is elongated, thoughts move in a smooth wave, creativity is enhanced, and an overall sense of joy and mirth with life.

I would think, and of course this is simply my own conjecture, that Miss Rand would at the least extol their therapeutic effects on relaxation and joy - similar to her enjoyment of wine (if not better) and man's need for living life. I am not speaking in terms of always being high, in fact quite the opposite, just using cannabis in an appropriate time and context.

Objectivists are not computers, we're individual human beings with certain spiritual needs as Nathaniel Branden states.

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In low doses cannabis can do several things that I think have a positive effect (bearing in mind context); relaxation, the senses are amplified, time is elongated, thoughts move in a smooth wave, creativity is enhanced, and an overall sense of joy and mirth with life.

I would think, and of course this is simply my own conjecture, that Miss Rand would at the least extol their therapeutic effects on relaxation and joy - similar to her enjoyment of wine (if not better) and man's need for living life. I am not speaking in terms of always being high, in fact quite the opposite, just using cannabis in an appropriate time and context.

Objectivists are not computers, we're individual human beings with certain spiritual needs as Nathaniel Branden states.

Yes, do agree with the relaxation aspects but too many other factors that outweigh this IMO. What I personally had a hard time with not only with pot but crystal meth, PCP, etc., is how it distorted objectivity, my view of reality, and also how it made me felt, and the fact that I could not think -- all things far for me personally of what it means to live life and fulfilling certain spiritual needs. With Ayn's fierce passion I would assume for these aspects, I would have a hard time believing that she would actively pursue intentionally distorting these but she may very well have. But I see you did mention that she enjoyed her glass of wine on occasion which as you know also has a calming effect. I can relate to this. I would no doubt choose the glass of wine over the pot, etc., any day.

As you know, there's many different ways to relax and to enjoy ourselves and we all choose what we think is best for us. I'm not that familiar with how Ayn lived her life outside of her philosophy; ie, I know very few of her hobbies, etc. But even for me and just getting a contact high or a bit of a buzz from smoking pot, it's not my thing. Been there done that. My preferences are candles, certain types of aromatics, soothing music, glass of wine perhaps, jacuzzi, hot bubble baths, photography trips by myself, have to say this but good sex, and many others which all bring me relaxation, joy, helps keep me thinking, gets the creative juices flowing, and so forth. To each their own and what each person thinks is best for them and how they ultimately choose. What works for me definitely will not work for another

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I would think, and of course this is simply my own conjecture, that Miss Rand would at the least extol their therapeutic effects on relaxation and joy - similar to her enjoyment of wine (if not better) and man's need for living life. I am not speaking in terms of always being high, in fact quite the opposite, just using cannabis in an appropriate time and context.

Agree. In any event, it couldn't have been worse than her massive cigarette habit...

rde

Then we could have gone to that site that sells all the Galt swag and ordered kewl Randian Paraphenalia.

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Other than Rand's "almost cannabis moment," there is her very real speed moment..." and moment.. and moment.. and moment.. and moment..

Here is part of a post I made in February.

I am near the end of Jennifer Burns's book, Goddess of the Market. (I haven't read Anne Heller's book yet.) Jennifer's book has a unique virtue—one that other books on Rand do not have. Since she had access to the Ayn Rand Archives, she had access to correspondence written to Rand that Rand kept. And she quoted from it to throw light on some of the more contentious issues that have haunted the Objectivist subculture.

One of these issues was Rand's drug use. The time is during the 1940's.

Jennifer states that Rand had totally blown her reputation with New York publishers by not meeting the deadline in her first contract for finishing The Fountainhead. To make sure she stayed on track in finalizing the book for Bobs Merrill, she got a prescription for Benzedrine (speed). In addition to curing her chronic fatigue (before the burn-outs, of course), this was quite the fashion among writers back then.

Rand apparently liked that a lot and became an enthusiast, even recommending it to others. Without going into too much detail, here is a quote from Goddess of the Market, p. 126, which quotes a letter from Isabel Paterson. The time frame is 1944, one year after Rand started using speed:

Paterson adopted a motherly role toward Rand. She was particularly concerned about Rand's continued use of Benzedrine to fuel her late-night conversations and lengthy writing days. "Stop taking that Benzedrine, you idiot," she told her. "I don't care what excuse you have—stop it."67

Here is the footnote (67) mentioned in the quote above. It is on p. 318:

67. Isabel Paterson to AR, January 19, 1944. On another occasion she threatened "to come out there in person and spank you to a blister" if Rand kept up her habit. Isabel Paterson to AR, June 7, 1944.

Jennifer gives the place in the Ayn Rand Archives where these letters can be found and mentions 2 other letters by Paterson to Rand in November of 1944 concerning her drug use.

That doesn't sound like someone simply following a doctor's prescription until a problem is resolved. That sounds like getting wired qua getting wired.

In the opening post giving the 2001 Atlantis discussion [in the original thread in the "Addiction" section of OL], I saw that, like in my own experiences in discussing addiction, some people mocked addicts, claiming that it was ridiculous to imagine Roark sending out to the drug dealer when he got tired. I wonder what they will think once they learn that, albeit with a prescription, this was exactly what Rand did—and she did it while she was finishing her creation of Howard Roark to boot.

Michael

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Other than Rand's "almost cannabis moment," there is her very real speed moment..." and moment.. and moment.. and moment.. and moment..

Here is part of a post I made in February.

I am near the end of Jennifer Burns's book, Goddess of the Market. (I haven't read Anne Heller's book yet.) Jennifer's book has a unique virtue—one that other books on Rand do not have. Since she had access to the Ayn Rand Archives, she had access to correspondence written to Rand that Rand kept. And she quoted from it to throw light on some of the more contentious issues that have haunted the Objectivist subculture.

One of these issues was Rand's drug use. The time is during the 1940's.

Jennifer states that Rand had totally blown her reputation with New York publishers by not meeting the deadline in her first contract for finishing The Fountainhead. To make sure she stayed on track in finalizing the book for Bobs Merrill, she got a prescription for Benzedrine (speed). In addition to curing her chronic fatigue (before the burn-outs, of course), this was quite the fashion among writers back then.

Rand apparently liked that a lot and became an enthusiast, even recommending it to others. Without going into too much detail, here is a quote from Goddess of the Market, p. 126, which quotes a letter from Isabel Paterson. The time frame is 1944, one year after Rand started using speed:

Paterson adopted a motherly role toward Rand. She was particularly concerned about Rand's continued use of Benzedrine to fuel her late-night conversations and lengthy writing days. "Stop taking that Benzedrine, you idiot," she told her. "I don't care what excuse you have—stop it."67

Here is the footnote (67) mentioned in the quote above. It is on p. 318:

67. Isabel Paterson to AR, January 19, 1944. On another occasion she threatened "to come out there in person and spank you to a blister" if Rand kept up her habit. Isabel Paterson to AR, June 7, 1944.

Jennifer gives the place in the Ayn Rand Archives where these letters can be found and mentions 2 other letters by Paterson to Rand in November of 1944 concerning her drug use.

That doesn't sound like someone simply following a doctor's prescription until a problem is resolved. That sounds like getting wired qua getting wired.

In the opening post giving the 2001 Atlantis discussion [in the original thread in the "Addiction" section of OL], I saw that, like in my own experiences in discussing addiction, some people mocked addicts, claiming that it was ridiculous to imagine Roark sending out to the drug dealer when he got tired. I wonder what they will think once they learn that, albeit with a prescription, this was exactly what Rand did—and she did it while she was finishing her creation of Howard Roark to boot.

Michael

I had heard about this and her tweaking moments to finish a deadline. We all have our moments of WTF was I thinking type deal. I'm not sure but it sounds as if she possibly enjoyed it. Does anyone know how long the use went on for? Also I am sure back then the use of this drug wasn't well known enough and all the BS that goes along with it. Hmmm....interesting though and how I know speed to be, especially if used in excess and often; ie, bad trips and hallucinations and makes me very curious as to what the extent of her habit was or if it was used only ocassionally. Cocaine never did anything for me so went to crystal meth, peanut butter meth, etc., and a lot more potent than cocaine.

I also enjoyed it at first. But dayammm, the bad trips and fucked up hallucinations if used in excess and over a long period of time. Yuck....bad memories of that crap. I also find it interesting, given her age, as to why she didn't pull all nighters without the help of an amphetamine or something to help keep her up. She should have known better and why she would have opted for help, especially given her age at that time. When I have deadlines for work and have to pull all nighters, sometimes staying up two days straight if not longer to get the jobs done and turned in, caffeine, power naps, breaks, etc., is what keeps me going and plus my drive and determination to get it done.

Unfortunately deadlines are my life in my profession...always working, never ending, so deadlines are always pressing so I can relate to the deadline issue and the fatigue that is there because of it. Also an interesting aspect is although deadlines and always working, I know she had some weight issues and if she had chronic fatigue, if she was ever tested for possible thyroid problems...these are two huge symptoms...weight issues and contstantly tired. I have thyroid problems but mine was the opposite and once Graves' disease and unfortunately had that tweakin' feeling every single day, day in and day out, for many years. Had been many many years since the last time I did speed. But when it starts to happen naturally because of way too much TSH being pumped out by your thyroid, it becomes a serious drag. I guess one of the beauties of being so familiar with medicine is it definitely expands your knowledge with the possibilities. I'm curious if she had done any research at all on the drug she was prescribed before taking it or if she relied and put faith into the doctor and that he or she knew best. Yikes...another issue here and my own experiences with doctors. Doing heavy research into it first makes a world of difference not only of diseases but of meds that are prescribed and helps enable you to make informed decisions rather than relying on what someone tells you.

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Angie,

This is mostly a non-issue except for Rand fanatics who think she did no wrong or did only wrong.

In our little sub-community, Barbara reported in The Passion of Ayn Rand that Rand took a couple of these pills daily for over 30 years. Now it appears that Barbara was being a bit over-protective of her by downplaying it.

But from the ballistic reaction (both sides of fanatics) to Barbara's notice, you'd think the earth opened in an earth-spltting volcanic belch and Beelzebub surged up in drag, walking on lava while munching on little babies. And it has come in waves like that over the years.

But that's only in fanatical Randland.

The rest of humanity prefers to read and enjoy Rand's books without even thinking about this stuff. And when they do, they don't seem to mind that she liked getting a little wired...

Rand's progressive negativity, taking things personally that were not intended that way, etc., certainly fit the standard profile of a long-term speed user. Whether there is a correlation is speculation, but the facts fit very well. Sort of like the hands shaking on a long-term heavy drinker. I know I don't have any problem with that and I hold Rand is super-high regard. What happened happened. It's silly to pretend otherwise.

Michael

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Angie,

This is mostly a non-issue except for Rand fanatics who think she did no wrong or did only wrong.

In our little sub-community, Barbara reported in The Passion of Ayn Rand that Rand took a couple of these pills daily for over 30 years. Now it appears that Barbara was being a bit over-protective of her by downplaying it.

But from the ballistic reaction (both sides of fanatics) to Barbara's notice, you'd think the earth opened in an earth-spltting volcanic belch and Beelzebub surged up in drag, walking on lava while munching on little babies. And it has come in waves like that over the years.

But that's only in fanatical Randland.

The rest of humanity prefers to read and enjoy Rand's books without even thinking about this stuff. And when they do, they don't seem to mind that she liked getting a little wired...

Rand's progressive negativity, taking things personally that were not intended that way, etc., certainly fit the standard profile of a long-term speed user. Whether there is a correlation is speculation, but the facts fit very well. Sort of like the hands shaking on a long-term heavy drinker. I know I don't have any problem with that and I hold Rand is super-high regard. What happened happened. It's silly to pretend otherwise.

Michael

I'm not so much making an issue of this in regards to Rand. I'm just quite surprised to hear or read this, especially coming from someone such as Rand. Obviously as you can tell and I am sure others as well I am very much against drug use and/or heavy alcohol use and I don't want to come off as a "preacher" that everyone despises because we have an ex user and now they voice strong opinions of those that use it -- although be it, caffeine, etc., etc. I'm not speaking in this context as to these types of stimulants.

I'm going to share a bit of a very hard core reality that most I am sure are not even aware of with the exception of a few that were themselves of heavy users or what have you. You make decisions based on the knowledge that you possess at that given time. But ultimately reality is truly the final judge. If Rand was aware of this reality and her being as rational as she was, she would have thought twice I am sure about popping another pill. It's the ultimate of dayaammm....this is what NOT to do and you take a long hard look at hard core reality as it is presented to you and it's heavy shit. You learn from watching other people on what NOT to do.

I'm going to share a few stories of my own experiences with drugs as well as those that are or were very close to me. I never became addicted to any of the drugs that I was using when I was much younger. It was very easy for me to stop without any hardcore damage being inflicted, no withdrawls that I can remember at least. But I do have a scary story and a serious eye opener of smoking weed that came from a dealer I knew very well but was laced with whatever it was (he wasn't even aware of it) and that ultimately jacked me up pretty severely -- scary shit of being aware of my surroundings but completely paralyzed and unable to move, couldn't speak, but was conscious lying on the pavement and aware of what was going on around me, hearing what was being said. I would temporarily gain mobility and attempted to get up which would induce violent vomitting and then another episode of being completely paralyzed and crashing to the pavement and again being fully aware of my surroundings but unable to move, unable to speak. I was perhaps 15 or 16 years old when this happened. This went on for many many hours that night. They wanted to take me to the emergency but during the short periods where I could come to and able to move and able to speak I told them no and not to take me to the hospital. You know, you can have a reputable dealer so to speak if you want to call it that but you truly don't know what is in that shit you're buying and/or smoking.

I read about half way through of the Addiction posts from Atlantis in the Addiction forum. I read a bit of George's story and a few others and I found it interesting but also had to chuckle a bit and the reason being is because of the crap I have seen, hardcore reality, that far exceeds anything that is on that thread. Aside from the evasion, the inability to think and destroying man's mind, the pain, grouping, being driven by emotions, etc., and the reasons people decide to ultimately do drugs, I give those that have been through it themselves more credit rather than those that sit in their ivory towers drawing conclusions and attempting to argue their points when they have absolutely no firsthand knowledge and experience with it. BUT there are those that have enough sense to know and to form an opinion that it is not for them by either what they have been told or by what they have observed without having a direct experience with it but again sometimes difficult for arguments to hold water when they don't have experience or haven't seen reality for what it truly is.

I read about the physiological aspects and the physical withdrawls and those that say it is a myth as well as other views on that thread. What you see in detox centers and/or rehabs for users is the lighter side of reality and what happens with drug use and this 3 to 4 days of detox is nothing when a drug user attempts to stop on her/his own. When you have a sustained level of these drugs in your system for a long period of time and then as soon as it starts to dip because their use of the drug has wavered from the levels the body has been used to over an extended period of time, detox begins. Sometimes the users will continue the detox on their own or they will go on binges in an attempt to ward off the symptoms and bringing that level back up to the level that their body has already grown accustomed to. The cravings may become stronger during this period. The user may or may not be aware of this and why their body is triggering this response. BUT if they are so far gone, that binge and attempting to ward off the symptoms will only make the attempted detox worse and they will continue to decline until a 5150 or 5250 is warranted and/or coma and/or death.

As I said earlier, you make decisions based on the present knowledge that you have. But reality is truly the final judge. I'll explain a bit this reality that I am sure most are not even aware of when it comes to drug use and/or alcohol use. Again, if Rand and her being so rational knew about this reality and saw it firsthand as I did, I am sure her drug use would have stopped immediately. Mind you, I had already stopped all drug use by the time I was exposed to this aspect and the consequences of drug use and it truly makes me happy of being straight and narrow. You know, it is sort of similar to scared straight type of programs. This isn't only in regards to alcohol abuse but also in regards to amphetamines, heroin, and so forth. Short of actual death from use and overdose but unfortunately it is more prolonged and a worse fate if you will. Death would be a blessing if you will.

To give a bit of background, my mother was a heavy heavy drinker for many many years, 24/7, woke up and started to drink and continued to drink until she went to sleep and continued this behavior year after year after year, estimated 30 to 35 years plus of this behavior, if not longer. The hand shaking from a long time alcohol abuser is just the beginning. I'm not saying that this happens to everyone because obviously it doesn't but the consequences and seeing it firsthand is some scary ass shit and this truly one of the most dreadful end results. I've been through a lot of heavy shit in my life, more so than most will ever see in their lifetimes and I'm able to withstand a lot and going through shit, but man, the minute you walk through those doors, all you want to do is get out of there as quickly as possible, instant stress, wanting to vomit because of hardcore reality being presented to you as it is. I have learned a lot and been through a lot in the short time that I've been here.

I'm going to try to keep this short if at all possible. Towards the end of my mother's heavy drinking, mental faculties began to decline and also the deficiencies of what her body needed in order to function were severely depleted because of the alcohol abuse. She attempted to cut back on her drinking on her own which of course triggered the detox symptoms. They became severe, cravings increased, and she began to binge heavily in an attempt to bring the levels back up to what her body was used to and to reverse it but this only made it worse. I won't go into all the details of what happened in the home with an alcoholic that was suffering from what is called Wet Brain. At that time, nobody knew what was happening. Her first 5150 hold happened which I visited her in the psyche ward, county hospital where they primarily deal with 5150s and 5250s only. 3/4s of the people in these wards are alcohol and/or drug users suffering from mental disorders triggered by heavy alcohol and/or drug consumption or who have had a bad reaction if you will from whatever they took.

When I walked up to the front counter in the office before being permitted to go into the ward itself, you speak with the doctors and the nurses and they warn you of what you are about to see and experience in an attempt to prepare you because it is some heavy heavy shit. I remember them telling me, "Are you sure you want to go back there? Do you think you'll be able to handle it?" Of course, I said yes, my mother was in there. They walked me to the door and waiting for it to be unlocked and again was told by one of the doctors, "After everything we told you, are you sure you want to do this?" I said yes. I was told not to get to close to people, not to make direct eye contact, etc., and to go directly to the room I was wanting to go into. Oh, MY GOD, the second I walked through those doors and what I saw, instant feeling of wanting to puke, overwhelming stress and anxiety. Most everyone in the ward was suffering from Wet Brain, drug induced pyschosis, bad trips, bad reactions to whatever they took. People walking around in strait jackets mumbling and talking to themselves. My looking in rooms and seeing people strapped to beds and unable to move but screaming and yelling because they were being given antipsychotic drugs against their will, mainly Haloperidol to help them continue the detox and attempt to stabilize them without their literally going crazy. People talking to walls, delusional, or having conversations with people that weren't there. My being asked by one of the patients if I wanted to meet her friend that she was talking with but no one was there. People freaking out because of their thinking bugs are all over them or that someone in their room was wanting to kill them but no one was there, rooms that were completely padded and nothing in it such that you see in insane asylums. One person being dragged away by two orderlies. All of this because of freakin' drug use and/or alcohol.

I went there a few more times before the 5150 72 hour old was over. She was still suffering the effects of detox and how badly the alcohol use screwed her up. This continued on for weeks and several 5150 holds later and calling the police and their having to forcefully remove her from the home in handcuffs. The last time and when she finally recieved the 5250 hold some crazy ass shit going on in the house -- I called the social worker and the doctor and told them what was happening and that they had to come right away. In order for a 5150 to be done you have to have a social worker or a doctor declare it. They showed up and took her away in a strait jacket, took her to county hospital, placed her on a 5150 hold and then ultimately a 5250 hold thankfully. Long story short and all the BS but it took her almost a year to recover enough to function on her own and take care of herself but even to this day she hasn't fully recovered from it and still has problems with it.

I'm not going to go into all the other heavier shit with this and what happened outside of the hospital setting. This truly is hardcore reality and reality truly is the final judge. Anyone can attempt to defend their use of drugs and/or alcohol use or attempt to argue a point when they haven't seen reality for what it truly is but I truly recommend that these individuals and unfortunately Rand herself should have because of her own drug use apparently to take a visit and a stroll through a county hospital psyche ward where they primarily deal with 5150 and 5250 holds wherein a great majority of the patients are there because of their use of drugs or alcohol use and various mental disorders triggered by it or Wet Brain triggered by their use and to see firsthand what reality truly is when it comes to this aspect and then come back and we can talk and debate of how therapuetic it can be.....LMAO. But I do have to say I do get the whole medical marijuana deal and use but hey, you use at your own risk, as long as you know the consequences of what could happen and you make an informed decision regarding it.

I guess I have made a bit of an issue with this after all but not really in regards to Rand but more so my experiences and views in regards to such matters and those that use drugs even to a small extent in the appropriate context and appropriate times or what have you. But to be quite honest, given how I know Rand to be, I'm quite surprised to hear about her drug use, although prescriptive amphetamines. Yikes. Dayammm....even after my own drug use and going through all that I went through with it and having enough sense to stop it around the age of 16 or 17, seeing this other shit and hardcore reality later into my early 20s and what my mother went through, even happier to be straight and narrow. I don't look down on Rand in the least bit and hold her also in very high regard but this is an aspect of her life wherein she lived irrationally in my opinion, although difficult for me to claim this because she wasn't aware of this knowledge I am sure during her drug use but in this sense it is contradictory to what she has said in the past or based on the interview and link that Blackhorse provided. We all have contradictions to varying degrees that have to be worked out; some more than others. I have to admit, although straight and narrow, I do drink on the rare occasion but rarely to the point of being obliterated.

In the people that I have known, inclusive of my mother, that have had psychotic episodes or mental disorders that were triggered by drug use or alcohol use, as long as they are sober and staying away from it, they're all good and doing well.

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In our little sub-community, Barbara reported in The Passion of Ayn Rand that Rand took a couple of these pills daily for over 30 years. Now it appears that Barbara was being a bit over-protective of her by downplaying it.

Barbara reported in Passion (in a footnote) as a counter to a story that was by the time of the publication of her book already in currency. Has Barbara told you that she's concluded she "was being a bit over-protective"?

What even halfway-strong evidence for the idea of Rand's being a speed freak has emerged since 1986 except for two or three chidings in Isabel Paterson's letters to Rand? (I recall something in Goddess about someone purportedly taking a bottle of pills to Rand, and there's Roy Childs' report of an unidentified secretary's telling him about AR's pill-popping. Maybe I'm not remembering some strong evidence. Is there any?)

Ellen

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Stuttle,<br><br>Speed freak?<br><br>Nah.<br><br>Used speed to get a buzz and not just as medicine?<br><br>Yes.<br><br>Let's keep it real. That kind of exaggeration is ARI-fundie-stuff.<br><br>btw - Those "two or three chidings in Isabel Paterson's letters to Rand" that you wave aside so easily completely torpedoes the nasty-toned denials and rationalizations of Rand's drug use I have read coming from the fundies. I have read over and over and over, "Where is your evidence?" in an intimidating tone of voice. Well, look at those letters. Those are evidence and they are undeniable.<br><br>Just because a mere "two or three" are available to the public from someone who got behind the censor's gate, that does not mean more things of this nature do not exist. <br><br>We--the public--just can't see if they do or not. It's prohibited. Access is prohibited and evidence is hidden by the people at the top of the very group whose members demand that we present "evidence." <br><br>Well, duh...<br><br>That doesn't convince anyone of anything. But it does look like bullying and dishonesty, especially when a fact here and there escapes their control--and the fact almost always discredits their position. Like these letters by Isabel Paterson...<br><br>Anyway, the law is what the law is and we are left with speculation. My speculation is that more stuff exists and is being denied public exposure, rather than only "two or three" things exist. God knows where I would get that idea...<br><br>Also, I said Barbara was over-protective because she speculated that the effect of the pills became that of a placebo over time, insinuating that Rand didn't use them for the buzz, but only for the energy problem that led her to start taking them in the first place, and possibly weight control. Getting a drug buzz is moral death to the fundies. (But Paterson's letters show clearly that buzz is where it was at with Rand once she got going.) That's what I meant by over-protective.<br><br>Michael

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Jennifer Burns has also noted photographic evidence from the mid-1940s through early 1950s.

Ayn Rand went through a couple of phases of significant weight loss. Since, so far as we know, Ms. Rand did not become a gym rat during that period, nor did she practice major caloric limitation, a plausible hypothesis is that taking Dexedrine is what led to the weight loss.

Not that any of this would matter to Ms. Stuttle. When there is FUD to spread and oneupmanship to practice, facts carry little weight.

Robert Campbell

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What I personally had a hard time with not only with pot but crystal meth, PCP, etc., is how it distorted objectivity, my view of reality, and also how it made me felt, and the fact that I could not think -- all things far for me personally of what it means to live life and fulfilling certain spiritual needs....

It's quite odd to lump these substances together, as if a drug is a drug is a drug.

I once knew a hard-core junkie whose arms were so scarred with needle tracks that she never wore short-sleeve shirts, and who had used heroin for so many years that there was barely a usable vein left in her entire body.

I once asked this woman about PCP (which I have never tried). She replied, "Stay away from that shit; it's nasty." When a dedicated junkie says something like this, people should listen.

Moreover, how people react to the same drug can be very different. I knew coke-users who could make a gram last for a week or more; they had no problem stopping. I knew other coke-users who would snort an eight-ball (3-1/2 grams) in one sitting and then try to score more. I have also known people who can smoke a lot of pot while remaining highly functional, in contrast to people who veg out after a few tokes. Some people have a high tolerance for certain drugs, while others have a low tolerance.

In short, it is difficult to generalize about the effects of drugs on different people. The same is true of alcohol consumption. We all know of people who get jolly when they get drunk and others who get downright nasty.

Ghs

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Stuttle, Speed freak? Nah. Used speed to get a buzz and not just as medicine? Yes. Let's keep it real. That kind of exaggeration is ARI-fundie-stuff.

Judging by the number of people I have met in recent years who have prescriptions for the amphetamine Adderall, Bloomington must be suffering from an epidemic of Attention Deficit Disorder. :rolleyes:

Ghs

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What I personally had a hard time with not only with pot but crystal meth, PCP, etc., is how it distorted objectivity, my view of reality, and also how it made me felt, and the fact that I could not think -- all things far for me personally of what it means to live life and fulfilling certain spiritual needs....

It's quite odd to lump these substances together, as if a drug is a drug is a drug.

I once knew a hard-core junkie whose arms were so scarred with needle tracks that she never wore short-sleeve shirts, and who had used heroin for so many years that there was barely a usable vein left in her entire body.

I once asked this woman about PCP (which I have never tried). She replied, "Stay away from that shit; it's nasty." When a dedicated junkie says something like this, people should listen.

Moreover, how people react to the same drug can be very different. I knew coke-users who could make a gram last for a week or more; they had no problem stopping. I knew other coke-users who would snort an eight-ball (3-1/2 grams) in one sitting and then try to score more. I have also known people who can smoke a lot of pot while remaining highly functional, in contrast to people who veg out after a few tokes. Some people have a high tolerance for certain drugs, while others have a low tolerance.

In short, it is difficult to generalize about the effects of drugs on different people. The same is true of alcohol consumption. We all know of people who get jolly when then get drunk and others who get downright nasty.

Ghs

You are absolutely correct in how it affects people in different ways and that is why I stated in a prior post of "I'm not saying that this happens to everyone because obviously it doesn't but the consequences and seeing it firsthand is some scary ass shit and this truly one of the most dreadful end results."

My point being is that this could be the end result short of actual death. You can't predict how each person is going to react to different substances but ultimately the consequences and the end results can be utter devastation. So why risk it? It's similar to saying, "Well, it happens to other people but not to me." So it's not a generalization and you've missed my point. Again, what I'm talking about and pointing out is: This is reality and these are some of the end results. You can't predict to what degree of devastation and how each person will react to it. Did I ever think that my mom's alcohol abuse or anyone else for that matter who knew her as a pretty happy drunk and high functioning for many many years would ultimately end up years later with Wet Brain? Definitely not.

If it happens to these people, it can easily happen to you.

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What I personally had a hard time with not only with pot but crystal meth, PCP, etc., is how it distorted objectivity, my view of reality, and also how it made me felt, and the fact that I could not think -- all things far for me personally of what it means to live life and fulfilling certain spiritual needs....

It's quite odd to lump these substances together, as if a drug is a drug is a drug.

I once knew a hard-core junkie whose arms were so scarred with needle tracks that she never wore short-sleeve shirts, and who had used heroin for so many years that there was barely a usable vein left in her entire body.

I once asked this woman about PCP (which I have never tried). She replied, "Stay away from that shit; it's nasty." When a dedicated junkie says something like this, people should listen.

Moreover, how people react to the same drug can be very different. I knew coke-users who could make a gram last for a week or more; they had no problem stopping. I knew other coke-users who would snort an eight-ball (3-1/2 grams) in one sitting and then try to score more. I have also known people who can smoke a lot of pot while remaining highly functional, in contrast to people who veg out after a few tokes. Some people have a high tolerance for certain drugs, while others have a low tolerance.

In short, it is difficult to generalize about the effects of drugs on different people. The same is true of alcohol consumption. We all know of people who get jolly when then get drunk and others who get downright nasty.

Ghs

You are absolutely correct in how it affects people in different ways and that is why I stated in a prior post of "I'm not saying that this happens to everyone because obviously it doesn't but the consequences and seeing it firsthand is some scary ass shit and this truly one of the most dreadful end results."

My point being is that this could be the end result short of actual death. You can't predict how each person is going to react to different substances but ultimately the consequences and the end results can be utter devastation. So why risk it? It's similar to saying, "Well, it happens to other people but not to me." So it's not a generalization and you've missed my point. Again, what I'm talking about and pointing out is: This is reality and these are some of the end results. You can't predict to what degree of devastation and how each person will react to it. Did I ever think that my mom's alcohol abuse or anyone else for that matter who knew her as a pretty happy drunk and high functioning for many many years would ultimately end up years later with Wet Brain? Definitely not.

If it happens to these people, it can easily happen to you.

Some people die from obesity, but this isn't an argument against eating. My father died in a boating accident during a fishing trip, but I never construed this as an argument against going fishing. Some people are killed while playing sports, etc., etc.

Such examples are endless. Life is full of risks. The solution is to approach these risks in a reasonable manner. I daresay that more people die from prescription drugs than from marijuana, cocaine, and heroin.

In Ceremonial Chemistry, Thomas Szasz discusses a number of famous and highly successful drug users. One person he doesn't mention is Herbert Spencer, who was an opium addict for much of his adult life, who lived to a ripe old age, and whose literary output was enormous.

"Opium eating" was fairly common among Victorian intellectuals. Thomas De Quincey, Samuel Taylor Coleridge, and Elizabeth Barrett Browning are a few names that come to mind.

The common euphemism for opium users during the Victorian era was "hypochondriac." When, in the literature of that period, you see someone described as a hypochondriac (as Spencer frequently was), this means that he often took unneeded "medicine," most notably Laudanum, for some imaginary illness. In many cases this was a polite way of indicating that the person in question was an opium addict.

Ghs

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George,

Some people die from obesity, but this isn't an argument against eating. My father died in a boating accident during a fishing trip, but I never construed this as an argument against going fishing. Some people are killed while playing sports, etc., etc.

Such examples are endless. Life is full of risks.

Yes, of course, I could easily break my neck and die due to an accident falling down the stairs. But please keep context. We are talking about drug use.

I daresay that more people die from prescription drugs than from marijuana, cocaine, and heroin.

Oh, man, you have to bring up prescription drugs. Apparently you must not know my medical history and oh, boy. But for starters, statisically speaking, it is difficult to claim that more people die from prescription drugs as compared to marijuana, cocaine, and heroin considering the number of people is exponential who take prescription drugs on a daily basis as to the much smaller number of people that are drug users. I would be most interested to see the statistics say for instance if the number of people was equal across both arenas in the world who take prescription drugs and who die from it as compared to the "same number" of people who use drugs and die, from overdose, car accidents, and so forth. I'm sure it would be quite an eye opener and would show how the mortality rates from drug use would far exceed those who take prescription drugs.

Also interesting that you bring up the prescription drug use, medicines that have been created to further man's life, to enhance their quality of life; to make man's life that much easier, drugs that may very well keep a woman or man alive. There's tremendous evidence to show that drugs such as heroin, cocaine, PCP, meth, etc., cause more problems and destruction of lives than they do good. If necessary, I will break down both of these aspects in more detail and comparisons of the two. I know both of these worlds all too well because of my past drug use and seeing firsthand what it does, what it did to me, observing others who were once great men and women who have wasted their lives away. But I also know the world of prescription medications -- 9 in total that I take daily and that have prolonged my life and has made my quality of life that much easier as compared to before. Literally, if it was not for these prescription drugs, I probably would not be here today.

In Ceremonial Chemistry, Thomas Szasz discusses a number of famous and highly successful drug users. One person he doesn't mention is Herbert Spencer, who was an opium addict for much of his adult life, who lived to a ripe old age, and whose literary output was enormous.

"Opium eating" was fairly common among Victorian intellectuals. Thomas De Quincey, Samuel Taylor Coleridge, and Elizabeth Barrett Browning are a few names that come to mind.

The common euphemism for opium users during the Victorian era was "hypochondriac." When, in the literature of that period, you see someone described as a hypochondriac (as Spencer frequently was), this means that he often took unneeded "medicine," most notably Laudanum, for some imaginary illness. In many cases this was a polite way of indicating that the person in question was an opium addict.

Yes, there have been a few drug users that have accomplished quite a bit. But the real question is: Does a great man or woman need such drugs to be highly successful, to accomplish and achieve a tremendous amount? The answer is no. It begs the question what in the above named people's lives were they missing or lacking that they ultimately resorted to using drugs to replace or to cover up as compared to the individuals who have achieved a tremendous amount, accomplished, very successful wherein they did not need those types of drugs in order to attain it?

I leave the last statement of yours and the most important one and is the one I am most interested in hearing above all others and that is introspection for you and to be brutally honest with yourself -- to describe and apply this to your own life, what you've gone through, how it made you feel, how it affected you ultimately, the pain that was there, the decisions you made in regards to your drug use that ultimately brought you this pain, suffering, destruction; your almost financial ruin and this financial ruin being close on its heels each day that you were dumping more and more money into it....that damn vicious cycle again....but this is the last statement:

The solution is to approach these risks in a reasonable manner.

After everything that you have been through, based on your own firsthand knowledge, experience, and understanding, how would you approach your past drug use in a reasonable manner? With what you know now, would you repeat the same decisions and actions that you once did and possibly risking the same outcome that you are so well aware of; a very painful time in your life?

If necessary, I will go over to the Atlantis Addiction thread and will post some very valuable pieces of information that you have provided and your thought processes at that time from when you started, how it progressed, and how you ultimately realized it was destroying you and that it was in your best interest to stop it and ultimately making the decision to do what was best for you and to further your own life. Again, damn, there's that life and death choice.

Again, to each their own, each person has the right to make the decision as to whether or not they want to pursue drug use for whatever their reasons may be but again informed decisions and knowing the consquences of such actions beforehand makes a world of difference. But prepared to take full responsibility for those decisions and actions whether they be good for you or bad for you.

Angie

P.S. Back to work today as usual and deadlines and expedite approaching but will do what I can to respond when I can.

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I suspect that many, perhaps most, of the people who have died from prescription drugs prescribed for them and used as the prescriber intended, were already sick. If so, even if more of them have died than from illegal drigs, the comparison, lacking controls, would not be statistically sound.

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I suspect that many, perhaps most, of the people who have died from prescription drugs prescribed for them and used as the prescriber intended, were already sick. If so, even if more of them have died than from illegal drigs, the comparison, lacking controls, would not be statistically sound.

Perhaps should have worded what I said in a different manner but nevertheless could use a control group for it. But you could still project given the current statistics and what it would be but wouldn't be accurate enough but would definitely give a gauge of it. What I was pointing out to George is that it's difficult to claim given the expansive gap and the numbers between the two groups that more people have died from prescription drugs than that of drug users when one group is drastically smaller just wouldn't work so difficult to use that as an argument.

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If so, even if more of them have died than from illegal drigs...

Pete,

I never used any drigs, but they sound far out...

Do you smoke 'em, snort 'em, pop 'em or shoot 'em?

:)

Michael

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I suspect that many, perhaps most, of the people who have died from prescription drugs prescribed for them and used as the prescriber intended, were already sick. If so, even if more of them have died than from illegal drigs, the comparison, lacking controls, would not be statistically sound.

I agree with the second sentence. The first needs work; you can take to the bank that almost every one was sick or had a debilitative condition. Most medicine is reactive. There is some proactive use of some prescription drugs by life-extenders. I doubt very many of those croaked consequently.

--Brant

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I think that more Objectivists (esp. the ARI camp) would benefit from low dose cannabis consumption. It seems that their primary drugs of choice are alcohol and caffeine. Alcohol can turn your mood into an emotional roller coaster and caffeine has you go-go-going! Cannabis is different in that it relaxes you yet stimulates your senses in a way that can give one a spiritual respite. Nathaniel Branden understands the value of R & R and engaging in other spiritually recreational activities. Man is not an industrial robot.-he is human with very important spiritual needs that are essential to his well being. I take cannabis maybe once a week at most and in moderation at that. The key is to be conscience of what one is doing and why.

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