Arkadi

do Germany and France live under socialism today?

169 posts in this topic

Again and again I meet objectivists who admit that Bernie Sanders is a socialist but refuse to admit that Germany and France live under socialism now.

This puzzles me, given that Bernie proposes precisely what is already in place in Germany and France.

Thanks for any help.

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The opinion sounds superficial -- how often the label is used rather than what democratic socialism means. Now in France the Socialist Party is the major party (link, click on Show). A good indicator of the extent of socialism is government spending as a percent of GDP. France 56%, Germany 45%, USA 41% (link).

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Again and again I meet objectivists who admit that Bernie Sanders is a socialist but refuse to admit that Germany and France live under socialism now.

This puzzles me, given that Bernie proposes precisely what is already in place in Germany and France.

Thanks for any help.

And what do they think it is if not socialism?

--Brant

what did they say?

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Okay. If we say the US is X% capitalist (73%?), we might say--say France--is -11% of that X% capitalist.

I don't think there's much to talk about--assuming William doesn't get going here.

--Brant

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Brant--

Thanks, that makes sense.

Would it be correct to say that Bernie wants US to be more like Germany and France?

Who's William?

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Would it be correct to say that Bernie wants US to be more like Germany and France?

Even France isn't socialist enough for clueless Bernie.

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Brant--

Thanks, that makes sense.

Would it be correct to say that Bernie wants US to be more like Germany and France?

Who's William?

OL's macho research man.

--Brant

wimp

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Merlin--

Thanks. Would you be so kind as to update me on this.

I.e., in what respects is Bernie proposing to go further than today's France?

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I.e., in what respects is Bernie proposing to go further than today's France?

He wants to extend Medicare to all ages, not just 65+. He would love a "dictatorship by the proletariat". Heavily pro-union. He relentlessly uses the class struggle -- the working class versus the rich. Blame for the Financial Crisis of 2008 goes totally to Wall Street, none to government. Free college educations for all at public colleges and universities. An so on. Where does he stand on various issues? See here.

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Merlin--

As far as I know, medical service and college education (including graduate one) for all ages (and regardless of citizenship!) is free (=tax funded) in Germany and France.

ps. Does Bernie really use the rhetoric of "dictatorship by the proletariat"???

A quick Google search has not given me any direct citations from him to this effect.

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Does Bernie really use the rhetoric of "dictatorship by the proletariat"???

No, such honesty would risk political suicide.

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Merlin--

That's what I thought.

So far, as regards his concrete proposals, I do not see anything more radical than what is already in place in Germany, France, and many other European countries.

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I heard Trump wants single-payer health care for all too. That'd make him not only a crony capitalist, but a socialist too.

--Brant

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I heard Trump wants single-payer health care for all too. That'd make him not only a crony capitalist, but a socialist too.

--Brant

He did at one time. He doesn't anymore. Now he's pushing mostly for a repeal of ACA and allowing insurers to compete across state lines.

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So far, as regards his concrete proposals, I do not see anything more radical than what is already in place in Germany, France, and many other European countries.

Health care insurance in both Germany and France is partly private. BS advocates single-payer healthcare, which means zero private insurance.

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Merlin--

Do you mean BS is for making private insurance illegal?

Does he allow for one's still using private healthcare providers if one so choses?

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Do you mean BS is for making private insurance illegal?

I doubt he has said that. However, this says, "Sanders’ plan would save consumers money by eliminating expensive and wasteful private health insurance."

Does he allow for one's still using private healthcare providers if one so choses?

Providers and insurers are two different things.

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this might mean: "plan would save consumers money by eliminating expensive and wasteful private health insurance [as the only option available]".

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this might mean: "plan would save consumers money by eliminating expensive and wasteful private health insurance [as the only option available]".

I haven't found anywhere that he has said unequivocally whether or not he is in favor of allowing individuals to choose. That's not to say he doesn't know, just that I don't think he has said explicitly. I don't imagine he would, either, given that this was a controversial point for Obama with the ACA.

BS has said, however, that his plan would have each state administering their own single-payer system with federal oversight. That implies that the states would have some say in whether or not individuals could choose.

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I heard Trump wants single-payer health care for all too. That'd make him not only a crony capitalist, but a socialist too.

--Brant

He did at one time. He doesn't anymore. Now he's pushing mostly for a repeal of ACA and allowing insurers to compete across state lines.

Im having a difficult time finding Trumps position on ACA. His web site shows hes taken no formal position. Cruz is unwavering,having cut his teeth on opposition to it and apparently is capitalizing on Trumps detail less comments.

http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/obamacares-newest-front-cruz-vs.-trump/article/2582335

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Sanders is not a "socialist" in the technical sense, nor are France and Germany "really" socialist in the strict technical sense.

Sanders is a Social Democrat, and France and Germany are both Social Democratic mixed economies. 

Social Democracy absolutely comes from the socialist intellectual tradition but it differs from classical socialism because it accepts the necessity of a market in the means of production. Classical socialism is defined by abolishing markets in capital/input goods

Social Democrats are basically what happened when Socialists realized that Mises and Hayek were right; without a marketplace in the means of production, economically efficient allocation of capital and inputs becomes impossible, and there is no substitute for the market process. 

So instead of focusing on the distribution of the means of production, Social Democrats focus on the distribution of the results of production. Thus for them, the core issue is income distribution and attempting to regulate and redistribute away the alleged flaws of the necessary market process. 

In practice this really doesn't differ substantially from economic fascism (which is also welfarist and believes in the managerial state), although it often focuses on different cronies and justifies itself differently. 

But no, France and Germany do not live under socialism today. They are Social Democracies/Mixed Economies/Regulated Market Economies. France and Germany DO, however, appeal to ideas from the Socialist intellectual tradition in order to justify their economic systems. 

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51 minutes ago, Arkadi said:


Close.

"Economic Fascism," also called "Corporatism," occurs when the means of production are privately OWNED but they are regulated/controlled by the State (to at least a substantial degree). As such, to the degree that these economies regulate/control capital (i.e. control how private businesses act), they are Economically Fascist.

More hardcore forms of Economic Fascism involve a lot of cronyism and "government-linked corporations," cartelization of the economy, etc.

Economic Fascism can exist in terms of degree, basically. I'm saying that it is present to a substantial degree under Social Democracy.  

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but Germany is currently doing better than US, as far as i can tell. so, it seems that the Economic Fascism they have works better than whatever we're having in US.

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