caroljane

Nervous in the Service

23 posts in this topic

Marine Sgt Gary Stein, who started a Tea Party facebook page, has said that he would "not follow unlawful orders" from his commander-in-chief Obama, thus putting his superiors in a quandary about the intersections of private free speech and the military constraints on political advocacy.

Thoughts?

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If he identified himself on Facebook as a member of the military then he's straightforwardly wrong. He was wrong even to publish his name. I don't see that this is a quandary for the military.

He's free to make good on his promise as long as he's willing to take the consequences. This would make him a celebrity, somewhat in the mold of Oliver North, and he could parlay his celebrity into talk shows, a book, lecture engagements, political candidacy and all the rest once he left the service (as he'll want to do at the first opportunity if he's sincere).

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Peter Reidy wrote:

If he identified himself on Facebook as a member of the military then he's straightforwardly wrong. He was wrong even to publish his name. I don't see that this is a quandary for the military.

end quote

Peter is correct. When I was in basic training at Fort Bragg, North Carolina, we were required to take a class on what we could and could not say, which led us into the ethics of being a POW and what we would be allowed to say if in the enemy’s hands. And that was, ‘We could say nothing.’ We were allowed to speak our mind’s during the meeting and I brought up the point that the ability to resist coercian is tough, and under torture, most people “break.” I was able to speak my piece but at the end of the meeting we were all told to keep our mouths shut from now on. And of course we could not publicly criticize the chain of command EXCEPT TO EACH OTHER.

You are taught to march, to historical cadence chants, in Basic. Then we were allowed to utilize the song lyrics we heard on the radio. Someone cleverly incorporated the lyrics from, “My Baby Wrote Me a Letter,” into our daily marches and we chanted that for about two weeks until stopped by our Seargent who said the lyrics had encouraged two guys to go AWOL to be reunited with their girlfriends who had threatened to leave them. Anyone who violated the rule would be on permanent KP. Freedom of speech is OK, within limits in the military. If you are told to shut up, you shut up. Those joining the military are under different rules and temporarily do not enjoy all the liberties of the Constitution. That is just the way it is.

Peter Taylor

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I would be interested to know what Shane B. who is career Air Force, and Aristo who has just joined it, think about this one.

Maybe they would just say, "Oh well..the Marines.."

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If he identified himself on Facebook as a member of the military then he's straightforwardly wrong. He was wrong even to publish his name. I don't see that this is a quandary for the military.

He's free to make good on his promise as long as he's willing to take the consequences. This would make him a celebrity, somewhat in the mold of Oliver North, and he could parlay his celebrity into talk shows, a book, lecture engagements, political candidacy and all the rest once he left the service (as he'll want to do at the first opportunity if he's sincere).

The lecture tour would likely have to wait until his stint in Leavonworth is complete. Assuming he doesn't leave the service, as suggested.

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Peter Reidy wrote:

If he identified himself on Facebook as a member of the military then he's straightforwardly wrong. He was wrong even to publish his name. I don't see that this is a quandary for the military.

end quote

Peter is correct. When I was in basic training at Fort Bragg, North Carolina, we were required to take a class on what we could and could not say, which led us into the ethics of being a POW and what we would be allowed to say if in the enemy’s hands. And that was, ‘We could say nothing.’ We were allowed to speak our mind’s during the meeting and I brought up the point that the ability to resist coercian is tough, and under torture, most people “break.” I was able to speak my piece but at the end of the meeting we were all told to keep our mouths shut from now on. And of course we could not publicly criticize the chain of command EXCEPT TO EACH OTHER.

You are taught to march, to historical cadence chants, in Basic. Then we were allowed to utilize the song lyrics we heard on the radio. Someone cleverly incorporated the lyrics from, “My Baby Wrote Me a Letter,” into our daily marches and we chanted that for about two weeks until stopped by our Seargent who said the lyrics had encouraged two guys to go AWOL to be reunited with their girlfriends who had threatened to leave them. Anyone who violated the rule would be on permanent KP. Freedom of speech is OK, within limits in the military. If you are told to shut up, you shut up. Those joining the military are under different rules and temporarily do not enjoy all the liberties of the Constitution. That is just the way it is.

Peter Taylor

Well I don't know...

But I been told...

Eskimo pussy is mighty cold!

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I would be interested to know what Shane B. who is career Air Force, and Aristo who has just joined it, think about this one.

Maybe they would just say, "Oh well..the Marines.."

Brant also

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Well I don't know...

But I been told...

Eskimo pussy is mighty cold!

Cold is comparative "when the ice-worms nest again"!

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Here is the CNN:

Published on Mar 13, 2012 by CNN

A controversial anti-Obama Facebook post from a U.S. Marine is now under Pentagon review. CNN's Lisa Sylvester reports.

The Facebook page in question is here: http://www.facebook.com/ArmedForcesTeaParty

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Here is the CNN:

Published on Mar 13, 2012 by CNN

A controversial anti-Obama Facebook post from a U.S. Marine is now under Pentagon review. CNN's Lisa Sylvester reports.

The Facebook page in question is here: http://www.facebook....dForcesTeaParty

Guess what - this is another upload "not available in your country" ie mine.

Do you have a text or the gist of the item? The Pentagon, wow - all the way to the top. Is this really becoming a Constitutional issue?

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Here is the CNN:

Published on Mar 13, 2012 by CNN

A controversial anti-Obama Facebook post from a U.S. Marine is now under Pentagon review. CNN's Lisa Sylvester reports.

The Facebook page in question is here: http://www.facebook....dForcesTeaParty

Guess what - this is another upload "not available in your country" ie mine.

Do you have a text or the gist of the item? The Pentagon, wow - all the way to the top. Is this really becoming a Constitutional issue?

Unfortunately no.

With the marxist mafia in the White House it appears to be a certainty.

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Here is the CNN:

Published on Mar 13, 2012 by CNN

A controversial anti-Obama Facebook post from a U.S. Marine is now under Pentagon review. CNN's Lisa Sylvester reports.

The Facebook page in question is here: http://www.facebook....dForcesTeaParty

Guess what - this is another upload "not available in your country" ie mine.

Do you have a text or the gist of the item? The Pentagon, wow - all the way to the top. Is this really becoming a Constitutional issue?

Unfortunately no.

With the marxist mafia in the White House it appears to be a certainty.

I don't quite understand, do you think it should be a constitutional issue or it shouldn't?

As I perceived it (hastily) the issue is, a serving soldier has the constitutional right to refuse to obey an unlawful order (Sgt Stein) or he doesn't (PDS and Cpl Taylor)

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Here is the CNN:

Published on Mar 13, 2012 by CNN

A controversial anti-Obama Facebook post from a U.S. Marine is now under Pentagon review. CNN's Lisa Sylvester reports.

The Facebook page in question is here: http://www.facebook....dForcesTeaParty

Guess what - this is another upload "not available in your country" ie mine.

Do you have a text or the gist of the item? The Pentagon, wow - all the way to the top. Is this really becoming a Constitutional issue?

Unfortunately no.

With the marxist mafia in the White House it appears to be a certainty.

I don't quite understand, do you think it should be a constitutional issue or it shouldn't?

As I perceived it (hastily) the issue is, a serving soldier has the constitutional right to refuse to obey an unlawful order (Sgt Stein) or he doesn't (PDS and Cpl Taylor)

Carol:

Not having been in the military, I am not certain as to all the restrictions placed on an active duty Marine.

I know he does not have to obey an unlawful order. However, my understanding is that, as an active duty Marine, he does not have a full range of

free speech as guaranteed by the first amendment.

I think he is toast.

Adam

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Carol:

This seems to be gathering steam...

marine-corps-times_0.jpg

The Marine Corps Times previews its cover story about anti-Obama Marines at their 'Battle Rattle' blog.

According to the article, of the 792 active-duty troops and mobilized reservists who responded to this year's Military Times Poll, 44 percent said that they disapprove of the way Obama is handling his job as commander in chief.

The article cites hot button issues such as repeal of "don't ask, don't tell," relaxing restrictions of women in combat, and steep budget cuts, behind the disapproval numbers.

The report highlights the recent controversy over a Tea Party Facebook page operated by active Marine Sgt. Gary Stein.

The full article is available only to Marine Times subscribers.

Video preview below: This story is about 45 seconds into the video below in the article...

http://campaign2012.washingtonexaminer.com/blogs/beltway-confidential/marine-times-investigates-anti-obama-marines/438681

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Yeah. I saw that Sgt. Stein has a couple of months to go in his current hitch and had reapplied to re-up. Looks like Reidy was right, he is planning for a post-military career as Marine martyr for free speech and the Constitution. I foresee multi media in his future.

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Army Reserve Reprimands Soldier Who Backed Ron Paul

March 30, 2012 11:40 AM

IOWA CITY, Iowa (CBSDFW.COM/AP) - A soldier who went on national television in his military fatigues to endorse Texan Ron Paul’s presidential campaign has been reprimanded but not dismissed from the Army Reserve, a spokeswoman said Friday.

The Army determined that Jesse D. Thorsen violated policies that bar soldiers from participating in political events in their official capacities or while in uniform. Experts say a reprimand may become a problem if Thorsen seeks a promotion or could be used to justify more serious punishment if he gets in trouble again

http://dfw.cbslocal.com/2012/03/30/army-reserve-reprimands-soldier-who-backed-ron-paul/

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Yeah. I saw that Sgt. Stein has a couple of months to go in his current hitch and had reapplied to re-up. Looks like Reidy was right, he is planning for a post-military career as Marine martyr for free speech and the Constitution. I foresee multi media in his future.

Carol:

Here is his chance.

SAN DIEGO – The Marine Corps said Wednesday it has decided to discharge a sergeant for criticizing President Barack Obama on Facebook.
The Corps said Sgt. Gary Stein will be given an other-than-honorable discharge for violating Pentagon policy limiting speech of service members.
The San Diego-area Marine has served nearly 10 years in the Marine Corps. He has said he was exercising his free-speech rights.
The discharge will mean he loses all benefits.
A federal judge previously denied a request to block military discharge proceedings against Stein, who called Obama an enemy on Facebook.

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Now you know why Hitler required everyone in the Wehrmacht to take a loyalty oath to him (Hitler) personally.

Ba'al Chatzaf

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Baal, I fail to understand your comment. Of course emperors and dictators have always demanded personal loyalty explicitly or implicity. But the guidelines of the American military about following orders are fairly clear. Do you support Sgt. Stein's action?

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Baal, I fail to understand your comment. Of course emperors and dictators have always demanded personal loyalty explicitly or implicity. But the guidelines of the American military about following orders are fairly clear. Do you support Sgt. Stein's action?

Stein knew going in that dissing his superior officers was a no no. He did not have to enlist, you know. If he soured on the service when his contractual term was expired he did not have to re-up.

Ba'al Chatzaf

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I just came across this. Thought I'd respond to Carol's request. Well, when it comes down to it, I don't see why an Objectivist would join the military. It seems to me that by joining you're throwing the whole idea of "rational self-interest" out the window. I wonder how many people really think through their decision to join? Perhaps that's the benefit of the military: to take those civilians who either can't think or choose to "evade" thinking, and make some use of them.

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I can only say, from the many family members I know who joined the service, they were instinctively following their own highest values, and allowed the government to make use of them.

I am glad that I did not grow up in a time of war. If I have to stand up still for more than a few minutes i tend to faint. I would never have made it through basic training,.

(Maybe it is the whalebone stays)

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I can only say, from the many family members I know who joined the service, they were instinctively following their own highest values, and allowed the government to make use of them.

haha, way to be diplomatic

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