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      Major Update to OL (please click to open)   02/09/2016

      Sorry for the inconvenience, but we had to update OL and there have been some serious changes made by IPB. The real bad news is that they had to merge User Names and Display Names. This meant that I had to choose between bad and bad. I opted to keep the log-on information the same, so you can get on OL like you always did, but now your User Name is displayed. If your User Name and Display Name were the same, you will not feel the change. If they were different, you are probably irritated right now. I will figure out how you can change this so you can revert to the Display Name you used before if you like, however this may entail a change in how you log-on. The good news is that OL is now searchable from the very beginning. This means all the old posts from the A-Team in Objectivism (and everybody else) will finally show up when you search for something. I will keep changing this announcement as we adapt to these new changes. It's a pain, I know, but after looking around the backend for a bit, I believe the benefits will far, far outweigh the current irritation. They changed things in a hamhanded way and I don't like that, but I can't do anything about it. Benefit-wise, they actually did a good job, so please bear with us. In addition to this change, many good things are coming over time. You are the reason OL exists and I am sorry you have to go through this. Think of it like birth pangs... (All right, all right, that's forcing it.  ) Michael
George H. Smith

Ghs lecture on resistance and revolution

36 posts in this topic

In this lecture given at a 1996 conference of the International Society of Individual Liberty, George H. Smith speaks generally on the moral right of resistance to government and particularly from the historical perspective of the American Revolution.

Ghs

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Excellent presentation, George. One point you make regarding when revolution is justified prompts me to wonder how familiar today’s liberals may be with the thinking of the revolutionary theorists. They argued that one crucial criteria for undertaking revolution was the likelihood of success, and that this would hinge on the existence of mass support. So how did they go about undermining the likelihood of such mass support? Answer: Create an “entitlement society” in which great numbers of people are dependent on the government for all kinds of special “rights” and privileges, such as the public employee and labor unions enjoy today. Not to mention social security, medicare, unemployment benefits, etc. etc.And now Obamacare. The list of hand-outs and subsidies is endless. Plus all the thousands of regulations that restrict entry and upstart competition. Their strategy has been brilliant: Keep offering people free stuff until the free stuff becomes more important to people than freedom.

And it has worked. Just look at the riots in Greece and the recall effort in Wisconsin. In fact, it has worked so well that one wonders if the day will ever come when mass support for revolution is sufficiently widespread to make the prospect of success at all realistic.

Thanks very much for posting this! I really enjoyed it.

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In this lecture given at a 1996 conference of the International Society of Individual Liberty, George H. Smith speaks generally on the moral right of resistance to government and particularly from the historical perspective of the American Revolution.

Ghs

This is the first time I have heard you speak. You are a very effective speaker. I am no reading Locke's Second Treatise as you have advised.

Ba'al Chatzaf

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And now Obamacare.

Folks:

When your children, your significant other and yourself are forced to access life maintaining medicines and treatments from one source, and that source being the government, you are truly enslaved and it is basically over.

This is why every totalitarian from Plato on up has made medical care the central piece of their tyranny.

Adam

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Looks good, like it’ll be an hour well spent.

Something that’s just crossed my radar is a pretty dorky sounding guy named Eric from Arizona who is claiming to have once trounced you in a debate. Now he’s looking for more victims. Who is this, is there a tape?

http://freethoughtbl...50-matt-tracie/

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Looks good, like it’ll be an hour well spent. Something that’s just crossed my radar is a pretty dorky sounding guy named Eric from Arizona who is claiming to have once trounced you in a debate. Now he’s looking for more victims. Who is this, is there a tape?

I debated the guy at a Liberty Summit Conference in Phoenix 6 or 7 years ago. I don't recall his last name, but it begins with an "L." A DVD was made of the debate. I have a copy somewhere, but it is probably buried in a box. If I run across it, I will give you the details.

From what I had heard of Eric -- he is one those fundy pastors (an avid creationist and a young Earth advocate) who goes around challengng atheists to debates -- I didn't trust him. I therefore had several email exchanges with him so we could narrow down the topic. We agreed to focus on Creationist arguments.

Eric went first. He did a power point presentaton, and contrary to our agreement, he quickly ran through a list of bullet points -- over 50 in all -- that included claims about Old Testament prophecies of the messiah to supposed witnesses of the Resurrection to, well, you name it. I stopped taking notes at around point 20.

When it became my turn to speak, I said that Eric argued for absolutely nothing. All he did was make a string of assertions -- a "laundry list," as I called it -- because he knew that I couldn't possibly cover everything, even if I wanted to. The whole thing was a Micky Mouse debating tactic, so I would stick to addressing the issue we had agreed upon. And that's what I did.

By his standards he won the debate, since I ignored almost everything he said in his initial presentation. Homey don't play that game. :cool:

Ghs

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And now Obamacare.

Folks:

When your children, your significant other and yourself are forced to access life maintaining medicines and treatments from one source, and that source being the government, you are truly enslaved and it is basically over.

This is why every totalitarian from Plato on up has made medical care the central piece of their tyranny.

Adam

It will be final when the government becomes the chief supplier of food. Medicine we can live without. He who owns the bread owns us.

Ba'al Chatzaf

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And now Obamacare.

Folks:

When your children, your significant other and yourself are forced to access life maintaining medicines and treatments from one source, and that source being the government, you are truly enslaved and it is basically over.

This is why every totalitarian from Plato on up has made medical care the central piece of their tyranny.

Adam

It will be final when the government becomes the chief supplier of food. Medicine we can live without. He who owns the bread owns us.

Ba'al Chatzaf

Robert:

You can grow enough of your own food hydroponicly in your basement, or on your roof, but you cannot get, for example, insulin shots, or heart meds that a person may need to live.

Adam

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By his standards he won the debate, since I ignored almost everything he said in his initial presentation. Homey don't play that game. :cool:

Guys:

Eric is one of the types of individuals that abuse and misuse the entire concept of "debate."

He illustrated it several times during that phone call.

It is similar to an attorney approaching you in the witness box and asking the "red flag" question which I train my clients to be alert to, e.g., Wouldn't it be fair to say Mr./Ms. witness that x y z q and r are true?

One has to be prepared to handle that question or else the next several ones will put you on a downhill slide to the pre-set conclusion.

Adam

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By his standards he won the debate, since I ignored almost everything he said in his initial presentation. Homey don't play that game. :cool:

Ghs

I posted a link in the comments over yonder, and Eric Lounsbery replied that your memory is faulty. Maybe the two of you could agree to have the debate uploaded to YouTube?

http://freethoughtbl.../#comment-52352

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Robert:

You can grow enough of your own food hydroponicly in your basement, or on your roof, but you cannot get, for example, insulin shots, or heart meds that a person may need to live.

Adam

A person who does not own a lot of land cannot properly supply himself with protein. To get enough protein you either eat meat or grew enough legumes. The amount of legumes need for a proper protein supply requires acres of land.

Ba'al Chatzaf

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By his standards he won the debate, since I ignored almost everything he said in his initial presentation. Homey don't play that game. :cool:

Ghs

I posted a link in the comments over yonder, and Eric Lounsbery replied that your memory is faulty. Maybe the two of you could agree to have the debate uploaded to YouTube?

http://freethoughtbl.../#comment-52352

I read Eric's comments. He is wrong about our understanding. As I recall, in my opening presentation (maybe it was in my first rebuttal) I even mentioned what the focus of the debate was supposed to be, and I proceeded to discuss fallacies in the Design Argument, while maintaining that Creationist arguments are merely a modern variant of this argument. There was a reason why I focused on this issue exclusively.

I don't have immediate access to my old emails because my computer crashed a few years ago. I backed everything up before formatting the hard drive, and I have a folder titled "System Recovery Files," which I used to reload my stuff after formatting. I know my old emails are in there somewhere, because I found them once. The problem was that I couldn't figure out how to read any of the emails. All I got was code. If someone can tell me how to restore those emails so I can read them, I can probably track down our correspondence. I don't think I would have deleted the correspondence.

I did a cursory search of a few boxes but I couldn't locate the DVDs. (I think there are two.) I know I have them, however.

Eric's contention that he argued for his bullet points is a joke. I don't recall how long our opening presentations were, but he mentioned at least 50 things in the span of 20 or 30 minutes. You tell me how much time that leaves for arguing for each point. Overwhelming one's opponent with more points that he can possibly address is an old debating tactic, one that one frequently finds in high school "speed debating." His opening presentation consisted of nothing more than a string of arbitrary assertions.

Ghs

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Ninth,

One more thing: Eric denies that he is a Young Earther. I fastened this label on him because someone specifically asked him about this issue during the Q&A -- i.e., whether he believed that the Earth (not the universe) is only around 6000 years old. I thought he answered in the affirmative, at least in regard to the existence of human beings. But if he says he doesn't believe this, then I obviously misrecalled his answer.

Ghs

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Robert:

You can grow enough of your own food hydroponicly in your basement, or on your roof, but you cannot get, for example, insulin shots, or heart meds that a person may need to live.

Adam

A person who does not own a lot of land cannot properly supply himself with protein. To get enough protein you either eat meat or grew enough legumes. The amount of legumes need for a proper protein supply requires acres of land.

Ba'al Chatzaf

Robert:

There are various systems for growing Tilapia fish in tanks for protein. Additionally, with square foot hydroponic gardening and vertical hydroponic gardening you can meet your needs for food.

Adam

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Ninth,

One more point, albeit a very minor one.

Eric appears to correct me when he says that he didn't challenge me to the debate. I never said he did. It was arranged by a third party.

Ghs

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The problem was that I couldn't figure out how to read any of the emails. All I got was code. If someone can tell me how to restore those emails

What program were you using?

BTW I posted another comment over yonder, just saying that you'd replied to his reply, with a link. Sounds like this debate might be better than most of the junk on YouTube. There's a zillion William Lane Craig one's, and he's just such a stubborn bore.

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The problem was that I couldn't figure out how to read any of the emails. All I got was code. If someone can tell me how to restore those emails
What program were you using? BTW I posted another comment over yonder, just saying that you'd replied to his reply, with a link. Sounds like this debate might be better than most of the junk on YouTube. There's a zillion William Lane Craig one's, and he's just such a stubborn bore.

The emails were written while I was using Windows 98. I later switched to Vista. In any case, this issue is not worth investing any time in. Eric can say whatever he likes. Perhaps it was an honest misunderstanding.

I looked around some more for the DVDs but still couldn't find them. I have a lot of work to do, so I cannot spend any more time on this for now. But I will run across the DVDs eventually. Even then I'm not sure I can legally upload them. The debate was recorded for commercial sale, and I may have signed a release. I wouldn't object if they were uploaded to YouTube, however. I recall that I wasn't entirely happy with my performance. The debate occurred shortly after my wife had suffered her second stroke, and I wasn't as focused as I would have been otherwise. But it was okay.

Ghs.

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The emails were written while I was using Windows 98. I later switched to Vista. In any case, this issue is not worth investing any time in.

Then I figure you were using Outlook Express. Just trying to help. I once had to do a recovery from a crash in Outlook, but I really don't remember much about it at this point.

Don't waste time on this on my account.

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The emails were written while I was using Windows 98. I later switched to Vista. In any case, this issue is not worth investing any time in.
Then I figure you were using Outlook Express. Just trying to help. I once had to do a recovery from a crash in Outlook, but I really don't remember much about it at this point. Don't waste time on this on my account.

Yes, I was using Outlook Express. I have been told there is a way to insert an old batch of emails into one's current system so that they show up like every other email. I even found instructions on the Internet. But nothing worked. When I tried to open the old emails as is, most of them wouldn't even open (oddly enough, a handful did). I spent nearly a full day trying everything I could think of. .

Ghs

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Answer: Create an “entitlement society” in which great numbers of people are dependent on the government for all kinds of special “rights” and privileges, such as the public employee and labor unions enjoy today. Not to mention social security, medicare, unemployment benefits, etc. etc.

So what should the leaders of the time have done? Left the people on the street starving to death?

Don't you think that when you are born you have certain inalienable rights?

Can't those rights be met without it involving "taking" something from someone else?

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Answer: Create an “entitlement society” in which great numbers of people are dependent on the government for all kinds of special “rights” and privileges, such as the public employee and labor unions enjoy today. Not to mention social security, medicare, unemployment benefits, etc. etc.

So what should the leaders of the time have done? Left the people on the street starving to death?

Don't you think that when you are born you have certain inalienable rights?

Can't those rights be met without it involving "taking" something from someone else?

We do not take our rights from someone else. Rights are something we claim for ourselves. Nothing is taken from anyone else.

Ba'al Chatzaf

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Ba'al, yes. "Rights"- otherwise know as "claims".

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Ba'al, yes. "Rights"- otherwise know as "claims".

Rights are obligations on others. Theoretical splits include negative/positive, claim/liberty, natural/legal, and individual/group (the WP article on this one is arguably shit).

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Ba'al, yes. "Rights"- otherwise know as "claims".

Rights are obligations on others.

This much has the concept of rights been twisted? Ba'al said it accurately.

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Ba'al, yes. "Rights"- otherwise know as "claims".

Rights are obligations on others. Theoretical splits include negative/positive, claim/liberty, natural/legal, and individual/group (the WP article on this one is arguably shit).

Rights are NOT the imposition of positive duties on others. Such imposition is better known as slavery.

Ba'al Chatzaf

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