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      Major Update to OL (please click to open)   02/09/2016

      Sorry for the inconvenience, but we had to update OL and there have been some serious changes made by IPB. The real bad news is that they had to merge User Names and Display Names. This meant that I had to choose between bad and bad. I opted to keep the log-on information the same, so you can get on OL like you always did, but now your User Name is displayed. If your User Name and Display Name were the same, you will not feel the change. If they were different, you are probably irritated right now. I will figure out how you can change this so you can revert to the Display Name you used before if you like, however this may entail a change in how you log-on. The good news is that OL is now searchable from the very beginning. This means all the old posts from the A-Team in Objectivism (and everybody else) will finally show up when you search for something. I will keep changing this announcement as we adapt to these new changes. It's a pain, I know, but after looking around the backend for a bit, I believe the benefits will far, far outweigh the current irritation. They changed things in a hamhanded way and I don't like that, but I can't do anything about it. Benefit-wise, they actually did a good job, so please bear with us. In addition to this change, many good things are coming over time. You are the reason OL exists and I am sorry you have to go through this. Think of it like birth pangs... (All right, all right, that's forcing it.  ) Michael
skrzprst

Agorism & Left-Libertarianism

16 posts in this topic

Here are some interesting links pertaining to agorism and left-libertarianism*:

all-left.net

agorism.info

leftlibertarian.org

c4ss.org

radgeek.com

aaeblog.com

*Left-libertarianism should not be confused with movements such as anarcho-syndicalism and libertarian Marxism. It is strongly pro-market.

Edited by vaguelyhumanoid
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Nice links!

The essential feature of Left-Libertarianism is that it supports the Labor Theory of Economic Value and thus believes "Capitalism" in the Marxist sense of the term (any economic system where owners of capital pay wages to workers to operate said capital) is exploitation.

Other than that, they are pro-market.

I disagree with their economics, but they have contributed greatly to liberty; the individualist anarchists were left-libertarians and a great influence on the modern free-market anarchists (the modern ones being the Rothbard-style ones).

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In my experience, left-libertarians are explicitly averse to the discipline of reason. They tend to hate Aristotle, Ayn Rand, or anyone who regards reason as an absolute. On the other hand, right-libertarians tend to be implicitly averse to reason. They tend to claim to love Aristotle, at least appreciate Ayn Rand, are in favor of saying that reason is an absolute, but then when it comes right down to it they tend to be religious in their views.

Left-libertarians also tend to actually be anti-authoritarian (actually, their authority tends to be their own whims). They usually do not tend to worship a single author or movement, but tend to like a smattering of different authors. Right-libertarians like to claim that they are anti-authoritarian, but at the same time tend to worship their favorite author (could be Rand, Rothbard, or Mises).

So, it is apt that they are designated "left" or "right", because they do represent two sides of a false coin.

Shayne

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Studio, not all left-libs believe in the LTV. The founder of the philosophy, Sam Konkin, did not, nor does Roderick Long or Brad Spangler. All of those people are entirely Austrian in economic theory. Even Kevin Carson incorporates subjective aspects in his interpretation of the LTV. However, left-libertarians usually do use a negative definition of capitalism. I know I have. However, no left-libertarian wants to stop "exploitation" through force.

SJW, you're generalizing wildly. Roderick Long considers himself an Aristotelean and has spoken positively of Rand in the past, and the founder of the left-libertarian forums follows Aristotelean virtue ethics.

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Studio, not all left-libs believe in the LTV. The founder of the philosophy, Sam Konkin, did not, nor does Roderick Long or Brad Spangler. All of those people are entirely Austrian in economic theory. Even Kevin Carson incorporates subjective aspects in his interpretation of the LTV. However, left-libertarians usually do use a negative definition of capitalism. I know I have. However, no left-libertarian wants to stop "exploitation" through force.

Vaguelyhumanoid,

Sam Konkin is the founder of Agorism. By "Left-Libertarian" I'm including the entire "Free market anti-capitalist" tradition, including the early free market anarchists like Tucker and Proudhon. In short, I believe you have a bit of a Frozen Abstraction (treating a sub-class or some sub-classes as if they were the whole wider class).

I've heard about Carson and his attempt to synthesize the LTV and STV.

And I agree with you; the left-libertarians don't want to use force. Hell, Proudhon wanted Mutualist-style institutions to compete against (and ultimately compete away) capitalist-style (in the Marxist sense of the term) institutions.

I have respect for the left-libertarians, so I'm not trying to bash you or anything.

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SJW, you're generalizing wildly. Roderick Long considers himself an Aristotelean and has spoken positively of Rand in the past, and the founder of the left-libertarian forums follows Aristotelean virtue ethics.

Actually you are generalizing wildly. Not that you're honest enough to care, but note how I said "tend to" and "in my experience" etc.

That's OK, I don't expect you to learn to read, or when corrected, to change anything about yourself at all. Keep your head up your ass, that's right where it belongs.

Shayne

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I don't expect you to learn to read, or when corrected, to change anything about yourself at all. Keep your head up your ass, that's right where it belongs.

Jackie, don't pay any attention to Shayne Wissler. He appears to have a bit of a personality disorder; when he finds himself in disagreement with someone, he calls the other person names and denigrates them personally with the first item in range. He cannot stand to be wrong, and if it seems he might be wrong, he calls the other person insane, deluded, stupid, fucked in the head, crazy or worse.

It is sad. A few rounds of cognitive-behavioural therapy might get Shayne closer to realizing his life goal of Master Of The Universe. Or at least give him a chance of getting laid once in a while.

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Looks like I brought out the motherly instincts in Scherk. "Don't cry Jackie, he's just a big meanie face, come to momma, there there dear..."

I'm sure Jackie can take care of himself, he doesn't need pandering wannabe mommies of OL to do it for him.

Or at least give him a chance of getting laid once in a while.

Hey Scherk, I don't know why you are fantasizing about my sex life, but I don't hang your way, I'm just an ordinary heterosexual, sorry man.

Shayne

-Not that there's anything wrong with that.

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Studio, I was using left-libertarian to refer specifically to the contemporary movement, which I'd say was codified by Sam Konkin, though the tendency dates back to Proudhon.

Shayne, I love how you resort to petty insults when people say things that disagree with your unproven generalized assertions.

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Studio, I was using left-libertarian to refer specifically to the contemporary movement, which I'd say was codified by Sam Konkin, though the tendency dates back to Proudhon.

Thanks for the clarification.

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Shayne, I love how you resort to petty insults when people say things that disagree with your unproven generalized assertions.

On the contrary, you're the one attacking me with this characterization, and also, without addressing the facts I pointed out to you above. But I gotta cut the little teenage punk some slack right? Don't just snipe me with ad hominem, address the argument, or take your ball and go home.

Shayne

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Shayne, I love how you resort to petty insults when people say things that disagree with your unproven generalized assertions.

On the contrary, you're the one attacking me with this characterization, and also, without addressing the facts I pointed out to you above. But I gotta cut the little teenage punk some slack right? Don't just snipe me with ad hominem, address the argument, or take your ball and go home.

Shayne

Pot_Calling_the_Kettle_Black_T-Shirt.png

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Selene, other than providing moral support to hoodlums, what other wonderfully valuable skills do you have? Just curious.

Shayne

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Selene, other than providing moral support to hoodlums, what other wonderfully valuable skills do you have? Just curious.

Shayne

Shayne:

I'm sorry, you must be in possession of some information about Jackie that I am unaware of.

Or, you are using a different definition of the word "hoodlum."

hood·lum (hoomacr.gifdprime.giflschwa.gifm, hoobreve.gifdprime.gif-)n.1. A gangster; a thug.2. A tough, often aggressive or violent youth.

Additionally, am I still pandering, or am I "...providing moral support...," I am so confused about how you perceive my behavior regarding Jackie.

Can you clarify your post, please.

Adam

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I'm sorry, you must be in possession of some information about Jackie that I am unaware of.

Or, you are using a different definition of the word "hoodlum."

You have trouble with metaphor?

Additionally, am I still pandering, or am I "...providing moral support...," I am so confused about how you perceive my behavior regarding Jackie.

Can you clarify your post, please.

Adam

Seriously? Pandering is a form of moral support. Are you intellectually challenged?

Is it wrong to rub someone's nose in something when they are intellectually weak/challenged if they are also arrogant, uppity, and dishonest? You make me feel guilty Selene. I wonder if this is from some bad premise I have about protecting the weak even if they are evil, or if it's from noble chivalrous premises. I know what GHS would do, but he's no role model. What do you think, should I be nice to uppity ignorant dishonest but intellectually-challenged punks or not?

Shayne

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Shayne's statement from post #15 of this thread:

"Seriously? Pandering is a form of moral support. Are you intellectually challenged?"

pan·der/ˈpænthinsp.pngdər/ dictionary_questionbutton_default.gif Show Spelled[pan-der] dictionary_questionbutton_default.gif Show IPA –noun Also, pan·der·er. 1. a person who furnishes clients for a prostitute or supplies persons for illicit sexual intercourse; procurer; pimp. 2. a person who caters to or profits from the weaknesses or vices of others. 3. a go-between in amorous intrigues. –verb (used without object) 4. to act as a pander; cater basely: to pander to the vile tastes of vulgar persons. –verb (used with object) 5. to act as a pander for.

Shayne:

Now, I am even more confused. It looks like pandering would be immoral support...

Can you help me out here, as I am even more confused than before.

Adam

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